Z253

[SearchSeeker]

Somewhat interesting that one of the largest subclades under DF13 really doesn't have much information posted here. Anyway, leaning towards this being an ancient Briton group, possibly Fir Bolg since we have the shared connection under ZZ10 with Z255, the Laigin. Doesn't look like any of the citizen scientists are really speculating much as to the origins for this particular group, not sure why that is. We know now that Z253 descendants spawned the Dalcassian empire, so that means something above L226 is Deisi, so that would probably be something in between Z253 and L226, actually not probably, it would have to be.

I was wondering does anyone have any confidence in what SNP might identify the Cenél nÁeda princes of the ancient Eóganacht Raithlind?

[Huntergatherer1066]

The Z253 SNP panel is available for sale at FTDNA now, that may help us get more data on Z253. I'm Z2534* (directly in between Z253 and L226 as well as a number of other subclades) myself, but my deeper origins are more likely French/Norman.

[SearchSeeker]

Curious what makes you believe your deeper origins might be French/Norman? Z2534 appears to have originated in the Isles, not on the continent but that's far from proven at this time, it just appears to be much older in the Isles. Regardless, it could be connected to Brittany, a group of Bretons, just a thought. I've put this out there before and am frankly amazed that if you have L226 being Irish Dalcassian, you have to work your way back through the parent snps. If the Dalcassians were of the Desisi, then at least a group of the Deisi would have to be an snp above L226 and either at or below Z2534. They didn't come out of thin air and we know the snps above L226. This seems pretty straight forward.

[Huntergatherer1066]

Curious what makes you believe your deeper origins might be French/Norman? Z2534 appears to have originated in the Isles, not on the continent but that's far from proven at this time, it just appears to be much older in the Isles. Regardless, it could be connected to Brittany, a group of Bretons, just a thought. I've put this out there before and am frankly amazed that if you have L226 being Irish Dalcassian, you have to work your way back through the parent snps. If the Dalcassians were of the Desisi, then at least a group of the Deisi would have to be an snp above L226 and either at or below Z2534. They didn't come out of thin air and we know the snps above L226. This seems pretty straight forward.

My surname is a Norman one and the bulk of people with it are Z2534* There are some Z2534+ people in the R1b French project. It's too bad DNA testing is so restricted in France or else we would be better able to shed light on this. The continental branches of Z253 need fleshing out.

[lgmayka]

The Z253 SNP panel is available for sale at FTDNA now, that may help us get more data on Z253.

How does one order it? A friend has tested L226+ (which is downstream from Z253), but he does not see an offer for the Z253 panel anywhere.

EDIT: He found it, on the main page below all the regular Y-DNA choices.

[SearchSeeker]

My surname is a Norman one and the bulk of people with it are Z2534* There are some Z2534+ people in the R1b French project. It's too bad DNA testing is so restricted in France or else we would be better able to shed light on this. The continental branches of Z253 need fleshing out.

Possibly Bretons that came back over with the main Norman body, which also included Flemish, Welsh, Normans of Viking descent, some Germanic influence as well, etc. I believe it's quite possible there is Z253 and Z2534 child snps that never left the Isles back for the Continent, these would be the L226, the L643. I'll state again, possible, but no hard evidence of course at this time, it's just one possible explanation for the Z253 diversity. Born in the Isles, some never left, some went back to the Continent as Britons, then Bretons. Some returned to the Isles much later, during the invasions. I'd say it makes sense and should be considered.

[rms2]

Honestly, I doubt that Z253 was "[b]orn in the Isles". For one thing, there is a fairly unique Spanish Z253 haplotype cluster with no apparent connection to the Isles, and, if I recall correctly, Z253 was first spotted in the 1000 Genomes Project among Latin Americans. I could be wrong, but I think it was born on the Continent.

[lgmayka]

The Z253 SNP panel is available for sale at FTDNA now, that may help us get more data on Z253.

How many sub-L226 SNPs are included in the panel? Should an L226+ man order the panel for $84 (after coupon), or wait for a more specific L226 panel?

[SearchSeeker]

Honestly, I doubt that Z253 was "[b]orn in the Isles". For one thing, there is a fairly unique Spanish Z253 haplotype cluster with no apparent connection to the Isles, and, if I recall correctly, Z253 was first spotted in the 1000 Genomes Project among Latin Americans. I could be wrong, but I think it was born on the Continent.

I think you are wrong, the Fir Bolg passed back through Iberia and returned to the Isles at a later date and so far the ages of the Continental varieties are younger than anything on the Continent. Z253 was spawned in the Isles.

[SearchSeeker]

Honestly, I doubt that Z253 was "[b]orn in the Isles". For one thing, there is a fairly unique Spanish Z253 haplotype cluster with no apparent connection to the Isles, and, if I recall correctly, Z253 was first spotted in the 1000 Genomes Project among Latin Americans. I could be wrong, but I think it was born on the Continent.

Also what does one variety, snp under Z253 being discovered first have to do with any snps origins? I've seen this repeated multiple times here on forums and it makes little sense. So what it was discovered in a project with a small number of Latin Americans, we've seen learned that was one small group and not all reflective of Z253 so I think we can move past that.

Richard, I may see now, it doesn't match with your own personal theories. Sorry to say, Z253 will most likely turn out to be the most ancient Celtic Britons. Is this your information below?

"Given the distribution of y haplogroup L21, its subclades, DF13 and DF41, and our haplotype cluster, it seems likely, at least as things now stand, that our y-dna ancestors were Celtic Britons."