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Thread: Using the "fateful traingle" to discover who Euro's non-Yamna ancestors were

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    Using the "fateful traingle" to discover who Euro's non-Yamna ancestors were

    Through ancient genomes and leaks about an upcoming ancient DNA paper, we can very confidently say that all European's have ancestry from Gok2-Stuttgart like people and theoretical Yamna(25 ANE, 35 WHG, 40 ENF) type people.

    In my opinion ANE K8 reveals 3 major truths about the non-Yamna ancestors of Europeans. I'm posting this because some people have been miss lead to believe all European are EEF+Yamna and that all ANE in Europe is due to Yamna-type people.

    EEF+YAM+X=modern Europeans. IMO, the best way to find out what X is, is by using ANE K8's fateful triangle PCA(see here). With Microsoft excel and Microsoft paint, anyone can easily create a fake score and plot it on the ANE K8 fateful triangle.

    Here's a spreadsheet of theoretical populations who (Likely)lived in Europe 5,000 years ago, with their ANE K8 scores and coordinates on my Microsoft Paint picture of ANE K8's fateful triangle. The theortical pop's color is in my spreadsheet, so look for a do that is their color.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Also here's the key for the fateful triangle(see here), so that you can recognize what dot is who.

    1.All European's non-Yamna ancestors(except Balts and far east Euros) had ENF ancestry.


    The only Europeans that can be fit as Yam+WHG/ANE are Balts and far eastern Europeans. Meaning all other European's non-Yamna ancestors had ENF ancestry. This leaves room for the possibility that all of Balts non-Yamna ancestors were hunter gatherers from northeastern Europe. This is why I suspect Y DNA N is descended of late Neolithic/Bronze age Baltic hunter gatherers(see here).




    2.European's non-Yamna ancestors had little or no west Asian ancestry.

    It is true that Central and southern Europeans can be fit as Yamna+Gok2+west Asian, but they are far closer to EEF than west Asians. Southwest Europeans are actually clearly mostly EEF. Some southeastern Europeans cluster closest to west Asians and can't be explained as EEF+YAM, which confirms they have recent west Asian ancestry.



    3.North European's have Late Neolithic/Bronze age hunter gatherer ancestry from northeast Europe: EEF+YAM can't explain northern Europeans. Even if there was EEF with 60% WHG, most north Euros still need a non-Yamna ancestor who had even more WHG. This also suggests north Euro's non-Yamna ancestors had ANE ancestry, which means they(at least some) lived in northeastern Europe or Scandinavia, because no west European and Balkan(Hungary) genome from before the bronze age published as of far has any ANE ancestry.



    Balts actually can't be explained as WHG+YAM or ENF+YAM, meaning their non-Yamna ancestors for sure had ANE ancestry. This is why Balts are not in the WHG/ENF+YAM triangle.

    Last edited by Krefter; 01-26-2015 at 12:24 AM.

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    It seems unlikely to me that in Britain and Czech two almost identical pops(in terms of ENF-WHG-ANE) were created. I think a Lithuanian or Polish-like population brought Indo European languages to west Europe. This is why on the fateful triangle there is a cline with Basque at one end(least IE) and Lithuanians at the other.

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    I think there is a good archaeogical case for most north Europeans having some ANE ancestry brought in in the Mesolithic. It seems to correlate with pressure flaked microblades and perhaps also pre-farming pottery. However, neither made it to the isles so there is not a good archaeological case for an ANE Mesolithic wave to the isles. That is a problem because in the isles ANE is highest among the Celtic fringe and so cannot be explained by later Germanic movement etc. In the isles archaeological case for a copper age arrival of ANE is much stronger IMO. It seems to me from the high ANE that the isles main post-Neolithic autosomal flow was distinctly northern European in nature in a modern sense with ANE levels being impossible to explain otherwise. It seems to me that the beaker people who came to the isles were in autosomal terms likely to have pretty much been the same as northern corded ware people. Only something like that can explain the shift IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    It seems unlikely to me that in Britain and Czech two almost identical pops(in terms of ENF-WHG-ANE) were created. I think a Lithuanian or Polish-like population brought Indo European languages to west Europe. This is why on the fateful triangle there is a cline with Basque at one end(least IE) and Lithuanians at the other.
    Sorry but could you expand on this. I was always curious why Brits and Czech are so similar in ANE/WHG/ENF, but arent really anywhere near each other geographically.

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    What he is saying is that Corded Ware mixed with other hunters en-route to Northern Europe, or were already less ENF then later Yamnaya upon leaving. That is obvious in the hypothetical Beaker, Corded, and Yamnaya, created by David and myself. 10-15% input from something 80%WHG 20% ANE can cover a lot. Odds are that Neolithic Poles were as much or more WHG than Gok2. It's fairly obvious just looking at the plot. Anyway, the paper will be out soon. With that, David and I will put out models for everyone, with a day or two later.
    Last edited by Chad Rohlfsen; 01-26-2015 at 02:05 AM.

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    There is a chance that Corded was already less ENF, but we will need the paper with genomes dating between 4000-3000BCE to figure that out. For instance, if a genome between 3000-3500BCE is closer to 30% ENF, then there is no need to look for an additional Baltic or ANE bearing input for Corded Ware. We will have to wait for the paper.
    Last edited by Chad Rohlfsen; 01-26-2015 at 02:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    What he is saying is that Corded Ware mixed with other hunters en-route to Northern Europe, or were already less ENF then later Yamnaya upon leaving. That is obvious in the hypothetical Beaker, Corded, and Yamnaya, created by David and myself. 10-15% input from something 80%WHG 20% ANE can cover a lot. Odds are that Neolithic Poles were as much or more WHG than Gok2. It's fairly obvious just looking at the plot. Anyway, the paper will be out soon. With that, David and I will put out models for everyone, with a day or two later.
    With an oracle? You can get multiple results. Also, we don't know yet exactly what type of west Asian admixture there was.

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    An Oracle is an option, but it will have to be set up a certain way. I will speak with you about that later. What mixture is coming into the steppes won't matter. What will matter is the result there of. If we have a set of Samara samples that stretch from 4500-3000BCE, I can figure it out. I don't want to go over the details on here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    An Oracle is an option, but it will have to be set up a certain way. I will speak with you about that later. What mixture is coming into the steppes won't matter. What will matter is the result there of. If we have a set of Samara samples that stretch from 4500-3000BCE, I can figure it out. I don't want to go over the details on here.
    What I meant by west Asian, is non-Yamna west Asian. There is obviously recent west Asian ancestry across Europe, and so my point was that has to be in the equation.

    Is the Samara paper supposed to be published, soon? Meaning Davidski will have all the genomes ready to analysis?

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    Yes, like I said, the Oracle will be set up in a specific way, with selected populations that are required. I can go over that with you later. Do you mean Polish-like, prior to mixing? I don't totally disagree with that. However, I feel like Bell Beaker is going to be dropped on the Irish/CEU/British area, and possibly more BR1-like, upon entering Britain.

    I don't know when the paper or samples will be available.
    Last edited by Chad Rohlfsen; 01-26-2015 at 04:01 AM.

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