Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 19

Thread: Persian Corsicans

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6,231
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2b- SK1480
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-S8172
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b17

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Austria Tirol

    Persian Corsicans

    Read a french paper I came across these

    PARSI CORSES = persian Corsicans

    some history below

    The word "Parsi" means Persia, and it is from this region from which this community fascinating history including religion, Parsiism, is derived from the Zoroastrian religion. The Zoroastrian religion is a monotheistic religion characterized by the worship of fire and based on the choice of good against evil, founded by the prophet Zarathrustra -600 BC .
    In the middle of the eighth century, a few years after the death of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, his second successor, Omar, attacked Persia. 30,000 Arab soldiers were victorious over a Persian army of 120,000 men at Tisfoun (located a few kilometers from Baghdad).
    Therefore the Muslim army continued its advance to the Iranian plateau and in all regions where the Parsis were established.
    The majority of them fled to India in Gujarat province, led by their leader Dhaval. Upon arrival, Rhana king of Gujarat, hands a bowl full of milk to Dhaval saying "my country is as bowl, if I add something it will overflow" Dhaval adds a sugar spoon and says "my people will bring you happiness and softening. " Thus began the expansion of the Parsi community in India.
    DNA testing of contemporary Parsi Corsicans confirm their origin Persia because they carry a specific genetic marker, the T-M184.
    A more refined analysis of the DNA of Parsi Corsicans their direct ancestor is in a region of southeastern Iran today, Mazandaran Province, whose capital, Kerman, was an important cultural center of antiquity.

    The ancestors of Corsicans Parsi had also served under a former officer Persia, Al-Aghlad, from the North-East of Iran and incorporated into the Arab army for his military qualities.

    Its route to North Africa led to the founder of the dynasty Aghlabite Kairouan (current Tunisia).




    I would like to get more information , if anyone has it

    Eit:
    IMO, Map is slightly out because Gujarat is the peninsula where pakistan meets india ( in india )
    Last edited by vettor; 02-04-2015 at 05:31 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to vettor For This Useful Post:

     Kurd (02-05-2015),  persian (08-21-2016)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    792
    Sex
    Location
    Gonur Tepe
    Y-DNA (P)
    L-SK1414
    mtDNA (M)
    U8b1a1

    African Union Ainu AchaemenidEmpire1 Kurdistan Star of David Dravida Nadu
    Zoroastrians from Yazd(pretty close to Kerman) and Teheran don't have Y-DNA T. Persians from Yazd are 6.4% T tho

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOC...41252.t001.jpg

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to jesus For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-04-2015),  Humanist (02-04-2015),  Kurd (02-05-2015),  vettor (02-04-2015)

  5. #3
    Banned
    Posts
    458
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Afghan
    Nationality
    Afghan
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a
    mtDNA (M)
    U2c

    Afghanistan England AchaemenidEmpire1
    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Read a french paper I came across these

    PARSI CORSES = persian Corsicans

    some history below

    The word "Parsi" means Persia, and it is from this region from which this community fascinating history including religion, Parsiism, is derived from the Zoroastrian religion. The Zoroastrian religion is a monotheistic religion characterized by the worship of fire and based on the choice of good against evil, founded by the prophet Zarathrustra -600 BC .
    In the middle of the eighth century, a few years after the death of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, his second successor, Omar, attacked Persia. 30,000 Arab soldiers were victorious over a Persian army of 120,000 men at Tisfoun (located a few kilometers from Baghdad).
    Therefore the Muslim army continued its advance to the Iranian plateau and in all regions where the Parsis were established.
    The majority of them fled to India in Gujarat province, led by their leader Dhaval. Upon arrival, Rhana king of Gujarat, hands a bowl full of milk to Dhaval saying "my country is as bowl, if I add something it will overflow" Dhaval adds a sugar spoon and says "my people will bring you happiness and softening. " Thus began the expansion of the Parsi community in India.
    DNA testing of contemporary Parsi Corsicans confirm their origin Persia because they carry a specific genetic marker, the T-M184.
    A more refined analysis of the DNA of Parsi Corsicans their direct ancestor is in a region of southeastern Iran today, Mazandaran Province, whose capital, Kerman, was an important cultural center of antiquity.

    The ancestors of Corsicans Parsi had also served under a former officer Persia, Al-Aghlad, from the North-East of Iran and incorporated into the Arab army for his military qualities.

    Its route to North Africa led to the founder of the dynasty Aghlabite Kairouan (current Tunisia).




    I would like to get more information , if anyone has it

    Eit:
    IMO, Map is slightly out because Gujarat is the peninsula where pakistan meets india ( in india )
    Omar wasn't a prophet btw

  6. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6,231
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2b- SK1480
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-S8172
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b17

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Austria Tirol
    Quote Originally Posted by jesus View Post
    Zoroastrians from Yazd(pretty close to Kerman) and Teheran don't have Y-DNA T. Persians from Yazd are 6.4% T tho

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOC...41252.t001.jpg
    thanks

    Of course the figures are of today, we do not know what % where around in those areas 1000 years ago


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

  7. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6,231
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2b- SK1480
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-S8172
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b17

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Austria Tirol
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barnacle View Post
    Omar wasn't a prophet btw
    who was this second successor ?....just a military leader?


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

  8. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,203
    Sex
    Location
    France
    Ethnicity
    Wallon/Normand
    Nationality
    French
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2a2b2a1b1a2a1-S2808
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2a1

    Normandie Wallonia
    I have never heard of Corsican Parsi.

    Make sure it is not a joke !

    What is the paper ?

  9. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6,231
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2b- SK1480
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-S8172
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b17

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Austria Tirol
    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    I have never heard of Corsican Parsi.

    Make sure it is not a joke !

    What is the paper ?
    I cannot read french and I got the article second hand ..................which is why i asked the question.
    But I was also given this which I do not know how legitimate it is ...dated early middle-ages

    Lettre de l'émir de Sardaigne adressée à l'émir de Sicile, le mardi 16 septembre 895

    « J'informe sa Grandeur, que pour la nouvelle année je ferais partir les navires que je possède en Sardaigne pour les envoyer en Corse, et voir de quelles forces disposent ces gens, et si nous pouvons prendre possession de cette île, car si nous pouvons prendre cette île j'en informerai immédiatement sa grandeur, afin qu'elle m'envoie une bonne expédition de gens, comme cela s'est fait en Sardaigne, et ainsi nous nous rendrons maîtres de cette île. Quand cette île sera conquise par l'émir, que sa grandeur enverra avec l'armée, alors nous pourrons mutuellement nous aider. Parce que si la gente ennemie veut prendre la Sardaigne, elle ne pourra se réfugier en Corse, et si la gente ennemie veut prendre la Corse, elle ne pourra pas se réfugier en Sardaigne, et plus personne ne pourra nous faire partir de ces deux îles. Cela serait mon avis, bien sur sa grandeur, qui seule commande, ordonnera ce qu'elle jugera le mieux : Et pourtant il me semble que ce serait une très bonne chose. Avec mon front qui touche le sol, j'embrasse les mains de sa grandeur et je signe ainsi: Emir Safian Ben Kasagia, par la grâce de Dieu, serviteur de sa grandeur Alhasan Ben el Aabbas, Emir Chbir de Sicile.
    Medina de Sardaigne le 22 du mois d'Asam l'an 282 de Mahomet. »

    L’émir de Sicile, à travers sa correspondance, a donné un avis favorable à ce projet et fourni les troupes nécessaires pour la constitution du corps expéditionnaire en Corse, dont les Parsi parmis ses troupes d’élite. C’est ainsi 15 000 hommes embarqués sur 70 navires qui firent route vers la Sardaigne et la Corse.
    L’aventure étant incertaine il fut interdit aux militaires d’embarquer avec leurs familles, restées en Sicile, ce qui provoqua quelques remous dont l’émir de Sardaigne se fit l’écho.

    Le 19 du mois d’Al Mouharram 284 (26/02/897), une lettre de Corse est portée à l’émir de Sardaigne, qui la fait suivre immédiatement à l’émir de Sicile. Cette lettre est un rapport circonstancié de plusieurs pages, dont voici des courts extraits :

    « Alhasan Ben el Aabbas, par la grâce de Dieu, Emir Chbir de Sicile, l’émir Ibrahim ben Mustafa, avec son front qui touche le sol, embrasse les mains de sa grandeur, et l’informe que le 25 du mois de Chawwal 283 (05/12/896), je suis arrivé avec l’armée en Sardaigne. J’ai informé par lettre l’émir Safian Ben Kasagia que je demeurerais ici quelques jours, et le 2 du mois de Dhou Al-qi'da (11/12/896), je suis parti de Sardaigne avec toute l’armée et le 3 du même mois de Dhou Al-qi'da (12/12/896) je suis arrivé en Corse.
    Après avoir débarqué avec tous les gens de l’armée, j’ai fait établir un campement. Le 4 du même mois de Dhou Al-qi'da (13/12/896), alors que nous cheminions vers la Medina (Capitale) de cette île, nous avons donné un grand assaut, qui s’est passé assez bien : Tous les gens qui n’ont pu s’enfuir ont été passé au fil de l’épée, à la réserve des femmes et des enfants. Nous nous sommes rendus mettre de cette Medina, 3 heures avant que le soleil ne se couche nous en étions les seigneurs. Le 5 du même mois de Dhou Al-qi'da (14/12/896) j’ai fait rassembler nos gens morts dans cet assaut, qui furent au nombre de Trois Cents Quarante Sept, et je les ais fait inhumés. J’ai fait aussi rassembler tous les gens de ce pays qui étaient morts, qui étaient au nombre de Cinq Cents Soixante et Onze : je ne l’ai ais pas fait bruler, mais enterrer. (…)
    J’ai demandé aux femmes ‘Pourquoi vos maris nous ont combattu ?’, elles m’ont répondu ‘Parce qu’ils avaient peur, que vous les eussiez tué, c’est pour cela qu’ils vous ont combattu’. Je leur ai dit :’Ecoutez braves femmes, je suis venu ici pour faire le bien et pas pour vous soumettre ; j’ai fait tuer ces gens parce qu’ils nous ont combattu, si ils ne nous avaient pas combattu, je les aurais traité comme des fils’. (…)

    Ibrahim Ben Mustafa s’est ensuite employé à faire revenir les hommes fuyards dans leur cité, qui une fois avoir reconnu son autorité ont pu jouir normalement de l’usage de leurs biens. Le récit continu.

    « Le 13 jours du mois de Dhou Al-qi'da (22/12/896), j’ai fait venir devant moi certains des habitants de ce lieu et je leur ai dit ‘Ecoutez, hommes bons, je pense aller à la conquête des cités et maisonnées de l’intérieur de l’île’ (…) ‘Dites aux habitants de ces lieux qu’ils peuvent venir à la Medina et se présenter à leur nouveau souverain, lequel les accueillera avec affection, et fera quelques réjouissances avec eux’ (…)
    Maintenant je vais leur envoyer dans chaque lieu un de mes hommes les gouverner, parce qu’ils ne sont pas habitués à avoir un gouverneur, et qu’il est nécessaire de les administrer avec prudence et douceur. Dans la Medina ou je me trouve, je réside dans un beau château, plus grand que celui dans lequel je vivais. (…)
    Emir Ibrahim ben Mustafa, par la grâce de Dieu, serviteur de sa grandeur Alhasan Ben el Aabbas, Emir Chbir de Sicile. Medina de Korsica le 12 du mois ALmouharram 284 de Mahomet »

    Maybe you can give me an English version


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

  10. #8
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,528

    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Read a french paper I came across these

    PARSI CORSES = persian Corsicans

    some history below

    The word "Parsi" means Persia, and it is from this region from which this community fascinating history including religion, Parsiism, is derived from the Zoroastrian religion. The Zoroastrian religion is a monotheistic religion characterized by the worship of fire and based on the choice of good against evil, founded by the prophet Zarathrustra -600 BC .
    In the middle of the eighth century, a few years after the death of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, his second successor, Omar, attacked Persia. 30,000 Arab soldiers were victorious over a Persian army of 120,000 men at Tisfoun (located a few kilometers from Baghdad).
    Therefore the Muslim army continued its advance to the Iranian plateau and in all regions where the Parsis were established.
    The majority of them fled to India in Gujarat province, led by their leader Dhaval. Upon arrival, Rhana king of Gujarat, hands a bowl full of milk to Dhaval saying "my country is as bowl, if I add something it will overflow" Dhaval adds a sugar spoon and says "my people will bring you happiness and softening. " Thus began the expansion of the Parsi community in India.
    DNA testing of contemporary Parsi Corsicans confirm their origin Persia because they carry a specific genetic marker, the T-M184.
    A more refined analysis of the DNA of Parsi Corsicans their direct ancestor is in a region of southeastern Iran today, Mazandaran Province, whose capital, Kerman, was an important cultural center of antiquity.

    The ancestors of Corsicans Parsi had also served under a former officer Persia, Al-Aghlad, from the North-East of Iran and incorporated into the Arab army for his military qualities.

    Its route to North Africa led to the founder of the dynasty Aghlabite Kairouan (current Tunisia).




    I would like to get more information , if anyone has it

    Eit:
    IMO, Map is slightly out because Gujarat is the peninsula where pakistan meets india ( in india )
    Their settlement in Gujarat is obviously a historical certainty.

    One of the main Parsi settlements was in Navsari. https://books.google.com/books?id=oaSHIlcRejEC&pg=PA99
    There is a good chance that they were involved in major battle with the Tajiks (Indian and Persian name for Arabs) there. Though as neither the Arab documents nor the Indian ones mention that, we can't be certain.

    Last edited by parasar; 02-05-2015 at 03:09 AM.

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     dp (02-04-2015),  Kurd (02-05-2015),  vettor (02-05-2015)

  12. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,203
    Sex
    Location
    France
    Ethnicity
    Wallon/Normand
    Nationality
    French
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2a2b2a1b1a2a1-S2808
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2a1

    Normandie Wallonia
    Authenticity of the letters ? I am suspicious !
    Do you know the authors and the title of the paper ?

    Unique comment about Parsi as element of the army is
    "L’émir de Sicile, à travers sa correspondance, a donné un avis favorable à ce projet et fourni les troupes nécessaires pour la constitution du corps expéditionnaire en Corse, dont les Parsi parmis ses troupes d’élite. C’est ainsi 15 000 hommes embarqués sur 70 navires qui firent route vers la Sardaigne et la Corse."
    Quick translation :
    "in his letters, Sicilia emir gave a favourable agreement for the project and provided troops for the building of an expeditionary force to Corsica in which the Parsi were among the elite soldiers. Thus 15,000 men embarked in 70 boats which headed towards Sardinia and Sicilia."

    If it is not a hoax, Parsi could be Persian moslems and no zoroastrians.
    Anyway I have never heard of known descendants of Parsi in Corsica, Sardinia, Sicilia and Tunisia.

    I dont't know if there is more remained information about history and actors compared to the information in
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Italy
    Last edited by palamede; 02-04-2015 at 07:29 PM.

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to palamede For This Useful Post:

     ffoucart (08-08-2016),  parasar (02-04-2015),  vettor (02-05-2015)

  14. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,203
    Sex
    Location
    France
    Ethnicity
    Wallon/Normand
    Nationality
    French
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2a2b2a1b1a2a1-S2808
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2a1

    Normandie Wallonia
    I have just found an internet address speaking of the subject in French.

    It was a (fictional ?) assembly about possible origin of the Corsican last name "PARSI" with no known document to prove the persian origin.

    http://www.parsi-corsica.com/origine.html

    wild imagining or not ?

    "Les tests ADN pratiqués sur les Parsi Corses contemporains confirment leur origine Perse car ils sont porteurs d'un marqueur génétique spécifique, le T-M184."
    translation :
    "The DNA tests done by the Corsican Parsi confirm the Persian origin as They are bearers of the specific genetic markers T-M184.

    "Le plus ancien document écrit mentionnant les Parsi est un acte de mariage de 1602 dans lequel est cité un témoin ; G. Parsio."
    translation :
    "The oldest written document mentioning the Parsi is a marriage certificate in 1602 in which the witness is G.Parsio"
    The following document mentioned the catholic priest Paolo Parsii in 1642.

    These letters of the emirs would be kept in the Fez-Morocco library translated by Alfonso Airoldi from arab to toscan in 1789. It is to verify this t is not afabulating. I think it is an invention.
    http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonso_Airoldi

    http://books.google.it/books?id=EZSX...gbs_navlinks_s
    Last edited by palamede; 02-04-2015 at 08:17 PM.

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to palamede For This Useful Post:

     evon (02-05-2015),  Kurd (02-05-2015),  parasar (02-05-2015),  vettor (02-05-2015)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Persian/Azeri Music
    By surbakhunWeesste in forum Western
    Replies: 68
    Last Post: 08-11-2021, 01:24 AM
  2. Persian
    By Saba123 in forum E2-M75
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 11-08-2018, 02:47 PM
  3. Deep Persian ancestry.
    By Mixed in forum Western
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-07-2018, 12:45 AM
  4. International Area:Persian sub-forum
    By surbakhunWeesste in forum Suggestions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-28-2015, 06:34 PM
  5. Are these names of Persian origins?
    By Alanson in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-18-2014, 06:14 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •