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Thread: David Reich lecture 9 February 2015

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piquerobi View Post
    Their next step should be to test as many samples as they can from the steppes, from the earliest to the later periods, and also the Kurgan burials along the Danube. That was a route of penetration too. And of course Cucuteni. It would be interesting to know what Cucutenians were like.
    At the moment the Anthony model of R1a following the corded ware and the Middle Dnieper-Fatyanovo-Abashevo sort of chain and leading to Slavic, Baltic and possibly even having some sort of link to Sintashta seems likely while it also seems likely that R1b largely followed the actual Yamnaya - and perhaps earlier Suvorovo-more southerly route into the Balkans, Lower Danube etc. It does seem that the IE languages more associated with R1b other than Celto-Italic have that sort of background. However, it is possible that the IE languages of the Balkans entered it sequentially over a long period. Celto-Italic though is an early branch off so it seems it had to be in the vanguard of languages coming off the steppes and surely L51 and especially L11 is linked to that and is a clue to the sort of archaeological dating and trajectory we must be looking at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hector View Post
    I know nothing I say will sway your joyous delirium but there is close to 0 chance that any part of Europe was the original home of R1 if you look at the general distribution of R1, its sibling R2, its cousins Q. As Razib Khan pointed out Europe was a multi racial continent as recently as 5000 years ago. The genetic distance between some of the groups was as large as that between modern day French and Han Chinese.

    I know what you are clinging to. You hope that at least your paternal ancestors were subsisting in some remote corners of Europe so that you can all profess a sense of kinship and exchange wonderful well wishing. That is all good for social purposes. It is just that it is not science.
    Well I personally think R1, R1a and b all originated in Siberia and spread into eastermost Europe c. 9500-8000BC. I also think a side branch of R1b negative for P297 and possible some very upstream forms of R1a may have spilled into SW Asia around the same time. However the point is not about R1 or R1b in general. Its about P297 the ancestor of M269 and M73 being found in a hunter-gatherer in Samara and people carrying its descendant SNPs of M269, L23 and others in Yamnaya in the same place 2500 years later. Noone is claiming anything more than the evidence suggests P297 and its descendants down to and beyond L23 arose in eastern Europe. Above P297 much of R1b's life may have been spent in Siberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Well I personally think R1, R1a and b all originated in Siberia and spread into eastermost Europe c. 9500-8000BC. I also think a side branch of R1b negative for P297 and possible some very upstream forms of R1a may have spilled into SW Asia around the same time. However the point is not about R1 or R1b in general. Its about P297 the ancestor of M269 and M73 being found in a hunter-gatherer in Samara and people carrying its descendant SNPs of M269, L23 and others in Yamnaya in the same place 2500 years later. Noone is claiming anything more than the evidence suggests P297 and its descendants down to and beyond L23 arose in eastern Europe. Above P297 much of R1b's life may have been spent in Siberia.
    Funnily enough I was think of posing this as a question, in the light of these most recent revelations where do folk think R1a and b wintered ?
    Last edited by jdean; 02-13-2015 at 03:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    I've mentioned a few times that I think Western European R1b was out of Cotafeni, with R1a originally restricted north of the Carpathians. Beakers having extra EEF compared to Corded represents to me, mixture down the Danube, and more in Germany. It could also be from being what was really in SW Yamnaya, influenced by the Balkan chalcolithic.
    Its a good point. I fully expect steppe groups with a long history or a strong admixture in the Dnieper sort of end of the steppes to have had a large amount of European farmer DNA as well as the ENG/WGH-ANE steppe Mesolithic hunter types. However, they may well have had a comparitive lack of the mystery non-Europe farmer type southern component in Yamnaya as this most likely is linked to some herders coming north from either the west of east shores of the Caspian or on a boat. AFAIK the hints at this migration and of early pastoralism of a non-European type are at the eastern end of the European steppes north of the Caspian. So it may be that ther main difference between groups around the Samara zone and groups towards the Dnieper is that they received different types of non-local farming genes. However within-steppe movements from east to west and west to east seem to have occurred in the period 5000-3500BC and so I expect the same components but in drastically different proportions may have been the situation in the steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    ... Noone is claiming anything more than the evidence suggests P297 and its descendants down to and beyond L23 arose in eastern Europe. Above P297 much of R1b's life may have been spent in Siberia.
    Actually the evidence does not suggest that. Unless P297*s found there are the direct ancestors(or at least are very close relatives of the ancestor) of the later R1b's. It requires a nearly fulll sequencing and a lot of analysis. I doubt they have done that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Funnily enough I was think of posing this as a question, in the light of these most recent revelations where do folk think R1a and b wintered ?
    Still can see no evidence of movement west into Europe from Siberia-where R was found c. 22000BC in the early LGM-until after the Younger Dryas. I looked pretty hard but could find no trace of the sort of middle upper palaeolithic culture Mal'ta had in Europe or SW Asia, so no evidence that that migration ever happened. All I found was that it was more likely R remained around Altai or thereabouts during the LGM and probably spread into Europe after the Younger Dryas in the early Mesolithic with the spread of pressure flaked microblade technology. The latter technology probably also was taken to the Americas with Q folk who had stayed in the same or nearby refugia as R in Siberia during the LGM. So, for me it is very likely that R, R1 and R1a and b all first arose in the same area of Siberia and that later post-YD P297 or its immediate ancestor spread into eastern Europe. It is possible that at the same time the P25xP297 side branch spread from Siberia or central Asia into Iran and is responsible for the basal forms of R1b there today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    Your comparison is invalid because you have not taken interclade TMRCA estimates into account.

    The most recent common ancestor of the Yamnaya R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 and modern European R1b1a2a1-L51/M412/PF6536/S167 should have lived more recently than 8,000 years before present. (My most precise estimate is about 7,000 to 7,500 years ago.) In contrast, the most recent common ancestor of modern Sahelian R1b1c-V88 and modern European R1b1a2a1-L51 should have lived somewhere around 20,000 years before present. That genealogical split is more than twice as ancient.

    In other words, although the sampled Yamnaya R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 individuals cannot be the direct patrilineal ancestors of modern Europeans who belong to R1b1a2a1-L51, they all must share the same, singular patrilineal ancestor at some time more recent than 6,000 BCE. If not Yamnaya > Corded Ware > Bell Beaker, what sequence of archaeological cultures would you suggest might have enabled R1b1a2a-L23 to spread so widely in this time frame?
    Its standard paper genealogy practice that when you are having problems getting your ancestor you look for a sibling and then a cousin. The same applies for genetics. In the case of L51 and the Yamnaya guys they are relatively close cousins in archaeological time as they share the L23 mutation. We also from just one area have collectively the whole ancestral P297-M269-L23 sequence -a sequence of SNP probably covering at least the 8000-4500BC period -as well as the L23xL51 brother clade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Still can see no evidence of movement west into Europe from Siberia-where R was found c. 22000BC in the early LGM-until after the Younger Dryas. I looked pretty hard but could find no trace of the sort of middle upper palaeolithic culture Mal'ta had in Europe or SW Asia, so no evidence that that migration ever happened. All I found was that it was more likely R remained around Altai or thereabouts during the LGM and probably spread into Europe after the Younger Dryas in the early Mesolithic with the spread of pressure flaked microblade technology. The latter technology probably also was taken to the Americas with Q folk who had stayed in the same or nearby refugia as R in Siberia during the LGM. So, for me it is very likely that R, R1 and R1a and b all first arose in the same area of Siberia and that later post-YD P297 or its immediate ancestor spread into eastern Europe. It is possible that at the same time the P25xP297 side branch spread from Siberia or central Asia into Iran and is responsible for the basal forms of R1b there today.
    We should also include R2 and Q.




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    Quote Originally Posted by isbara View Post
    Please read the following about the origins of the Sumerian language.
    http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12206
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...d-DNA-of-Turks
    The central asian Turkic origin has no association with Turkenmen language used in western iran

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Well I personally think R1, R1a and b all originated in Siberia and spread into eastermost Europe c. 9500-8000BC. I also think a side branch of R1b negative for P297 and possible some very upstream forms of R1a may have spilled into SW Asia around the same time. However the point is not about R1 or R1b in general. Its about P297 the ancestor of M269 and M73 being found in a hunter-gatherer in Samara and people carrying its descendant SNPs of M269, L23 and others in Yamnaya in the same place 2500 years later. Noone is claiming anything more than the evidence suggests P297 and its descendants down to and beyond L23 arose in eastern Europe. Above P297 much of R1b's life may have been spent in Siberia.
    Alan - the Samara forager's P297 status is unknown. He was R1b1-L278(xR1b1a1-M478, R1b1a2-M269). We don't know if he was on the P297 line.

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