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Thread: R1a from Haak et al. 2015

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    R1a from Haak et al. 2015

    We got some great results. Everything seems to be lining up for the European history and phylogeny of R1a.

    A Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, Russia, (5500 - 5000 BCE) was found to be R1a-M459.

    A Corded Ware pastoralist from Esperstedt, Germany (2473 - 2348 cal BCE) was found to be R1a-282.

    And most brilliantly, something many of us had suspected for years now is confirmed!

    The Late Bronze Age person from Halberstadt, Germany (Lusatian Culture, 1113 -1021 cal BCE) was found to be R1a-Z280!


    Central Eastern Europe looks to be shaping up pretty good with Z282 in Corded Ware. Now Y2395, Z284 can florish later in the Nordic Bronze age. Z280, CTS 1211, and CTS3402 will fit nicely into the Western Trzciniec Culture, and later Lusatian Culture. While the Proto-Slavs (M458) are in Komarov on the middle Dnieper, and the Proto-Balts (Z92) are in the Sosnica Culture.

    Now on to those Samara results... Wow!! Where are all our Z645/Z93 brothers at??? A lot of R1b to carve through...

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    in R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project there's five men belonged at the same subclade of korelian man, an Italian, a Tunisian, two belarusian and a Rusian, they are all R-M459, R1a1 * -M17- M198-, this branch is now called YP1272 sister of M198 subclade

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    T101 where would you place L664?

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    We got some great results. Everything seems to be lining up for the European history and phylogeny of R1a.

    A Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, Russia, (5500 - 5000 BCE) was found to be R1a-M459.

    A Corded Ware pastoralist from Esperstedt, Germany (2473 - 2348 cal BCE) was found to be R1a-282.

    And most brilliantly, something many of us had suspected for years now is confirmed!

    The Late Bronze Age person from Halberstadt, Germany (Lusatian Culture, 1113 -1021 cal BCE) was found to be R1a-Z280!


    Central Eastern Europe looks to be shaping up pretty good with Z282 in Corded Ware. Now Y2395, Z284 can florish later in the Nordic Bronze age. Z280, CTS 1211, and CTS3402 will fit nicely into the Western Trzciniec Culture, and later Lusatian Culture. While the Proto-Slavs (M458) are in Komarov on the middle Dnieper, and the Proto-Balts (Z92) are in the Sosnica Culture.

    Now on to those Samara results... Wow!! Where are all our Z645/Z93 brothers at??? A lot of R1b to carve through...
    Maybe there was an R1a corridor linking the two major subclades of Z645+ through the Don/Donets river corridor. Isn't it possible R1a took the Don route up north rather than the Dnieper route?

    What does this Z280+ say about Lusatian? Weren't there arguments that Lusatian was Germanic/Gothic? What language do you think this Z280+ was speaking? West Baltic or perhaps some sort of other Balto-Slavic related language?

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    I am curious about Baltic archealogy.

    These are major cultures identified as baltic

    Lusitian
    West Baltic Barrow
    Dnieper-Dvinia
    Fataynovo-Balanovo

    Which stage/branch of Baltic and y lineages are associated with those cultures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    What does this Z280+ say about Lusatian? Weren't there arguments that Lusatian was Germanic/Gothic?
    Lusatian Culture developed from Trzciniec Culture under influences of Hallstatt/La Tene Cultures. I see no option that it could've been Germanic. Trzciniec Culture developed from some Corded Ware cultures, so presence of Z280 lineages isn't really much surprising . Although I have to admit that I'm happy to finally see an ancient Z280 .
    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    What language do you think this Z280+ was speaking? West Baltic or perhaps some sort of other Balto-Slavic related language?
    I guess they spoke some kind of a Balto-Slavic or Baltic language, although I can't be fully certain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Wow you certainly deserve a lot of credit for being right on this. Z280+ in Lusatian and its westernmost edge too.
    Thanks.

    It's a nice win. A lot of people had the Lusatian Culture pegged for U152, (due to the Celtic influences from La Tene and Hallstatt,) or U106 or I1 (due to the close trading ties with Scandinavia - the Nordic Bronze Age,) or I2 (especially the western end given the dearth of Z280 there today.)

    But... as you well know... one result in a broad cultural horizon that encompassed a large chunk of Germany, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and a bit of Ukraine is still far from conclusive and settled!

    Hopefully we'll get some more results soon. I'm now really interested in the western end of Corded Ware now that rms2 (stevo - the legend - Mr. 7 for 7, the man who said R1b originated from the steppe 10 years ago) and Jean are on board for U106. I'm intrigued and want to learn what their reasoning is for that, but right now, I'm certainly not leaning that way, and most likely will stay with my original Dna-Forums analysis (Z282*, L664,) but I'll save those thoughts and tweaks for the predictions thread.

    And hopefully, yes hopefully, this will finally be the year that we get those long promised results on Wielbark, Przeworsk, and Chernyakhov! And maybe even the first ancient M458. Just not in Poland though! Uggh... if that happens we will never hear the end of David's gloating!!
    Last edited by T101; 02-23-2015 at 07:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    Thanks.

    It's a nice win. A lot of people had the Lusatian Culture pegged for U152, (due to the Celtic influences from La Tene and Hallstatt,) or U106 or I1 (due to the close trading ties with Scandinavia - the Nordic Bronze Age,) or I2 (especially the western end given the dearth of Z280 there today.)

    But... as you well know... one result in a broad cultural horizon that encompassed a large chunk of Germany, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and a bit of Ukraine is still far from conclusive and settled!

    Hopefully we'll get some more results soon. I'm now really interested in the western end of Corded Ware now that rms2 (stevo - the legend - Mr. 7 for 7, the man who said R1b originated from the steppe 10 years ago) and Jean are on board for U106. I'm intrigued and want to learn what their reasoning is for that, but right now, I'm certainly not leaning that way, and most likely will stay with my original Dna-Forums analysis (Z282*, L664,) but I'll save those thoughts and tweaks for the predictions thread.

    And hopefully, yes hopefully, this will finally be the year that we get those long promised results on Wielbark, Przeworsk, and Chernyakhov! And maybe even the first ancient M458. Just not in Poland though! Uggh... if that happens we will never hear the end of David's gloating!!
    Yea it is one sample. But the fact that it is from the westernmost periphery is pretty significant. A lot of people were suggesting R1a would be absent in that region and that R1a would only be found in the eastern end. And then we ended up finding Z280+ not even L664. I am pretty sure those people suggesting U106 originated in Corded Ware are suggesting it originated in Eastern or north-central corded ware. The U106 in Western (or southern) Corded Ware is my theory. Interesting you think Z282* will be found in Western Corded Ware. I am the exact opposite. I think Z282* will be found in the most eastern Corded Ware (Abashevo) as well as in Timber Grave.

    I'd love to hear your thoughts on what lineages you think we will be found in those cultures and the linguistic identity of those cultures. Aren't there theories that M458 could have originated in SE Poland near the Ukranian and Belarussian borders?

    I'd also love to hear your thoughts on the more eastern corded ware sub cultures (Middle Dnieper-Fataynovo-Balanovo-Abashevo).

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    While the Proto-Slavs (M458) are in Komarov on the middle Dnieper, and the Proto-Balts (Z92) are in the Sosnica Culture.
    Proto-Slavs were likely to have dominant branch R1a-Z280. There is evidence to suggest that Middle Dniepr was Slavic homeland.

    The central position of the population of Ukraine in the network of insignificant AMOVA comparisons, and the lack of traces of significant contribution of ancient tribes inhabiting present-day Poland to the gene pool of Eastern and Southern Slavs, support hypothesis placing the earliest known homeland of Slavs in the middle Dnieper basin. http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/Rebala_2007.pdf

    R1a-Z280 is dominant among eastern Slavs including Ukrainians. Also, it is well established in academic literature that Slavs expanded from Ukraine into Poland with the expansion of Prague-Korchak cultural horizon in 6-8th centuries AD.
    Last edited by Volat; 02-24-2015 at 01:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I am curious about Baltic archealogy.

    These are major cultures identified as baltic

    Lusitian
    West Baltic Barrow
    Dnieper-Dvinia
    Fataynovo-Balanovo

    Which stage/branch of Baltic and y lineages are associated with those cultures?

    Lusatian is unlikely to be Baltic. It's far away from Baltic area. Besides, there're few hydronyms to suggest there were Balts living in Lusatian culture. These are Baltic archaeological cultures, which are mostly in eastern Europe and eastern Baltic.


    Stroked-pottery culture 7BC-5AD
    Moshinskaya culture 4AD-6AD related to Dniepr-Dvina culture
    Upper-Oka culture of Iron age related to dniepr-Dvina culture
    Milograd culture 7BC-1AD
    Yukhnovskaya culture 5BC-2BC
    Eastern lithuanian barrow culture 5AD-12AD
    Bantser archeological culture – 4AD-6AD
    Stone barrow culture 4AD-13AD
    Possibly Kolichinsk (5AD-7AD) and Kiev (2AD-5AD) archaeological cultures.

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