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Thread: Albanian DNA Project

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    In the book written by linguist Pr. R.Ismajli "STUDIES ON THE HISTORY OF THE ALBANIAN LANGUAGE IN A BALKAN CONTEXT"
    concerning the Raban-Laban metathetic form, pages 264-269:




    ....Aleksandar Loma, meanwhile, all acknowledging that the metathetic form of the name Arbėnė - Rabьnь (he also marked Labьnь, which is not documented!) Showed that the Slavs had known the place quite early, before the X century, said that the form Arbanas is a later one, for to draw the conclusion: "the Slavic recognition of this province in today's Albania, according to this finding, would be earlier than their own recognition of the Albanians by that name, which for this people is the oldest known record"
    Actually this means something else: the Slavs recognized the country Arbėnė with the respective political status at least in the IX century and this was expressed in a metathetic form, while later the designation for the people adapted according to the situation in the language. Besides Rabьnь we have, for place, rabьnьski qualification. But the forms * Rabъnas, as ethnic, nor * Rabъnija have not been proven.We think the Slavists are right, after whom the mentioned metathesis will have occurred at the turn of the VIII-IX centuries, as F. Ramovš had thought in 1936: in Slavic Carolus (according to Carolus Magnus, who died in 814) gave kralj, with metathesis (Karl> sl. * K ĺ> kralj), while Latin altar: oltarь, without metathesis, while the Christianization of the Slavs took place by the middle of the second half of the IX century.
    Ramovš's analysis means that metathesis had operated at the beginning of the century - IX - , but not in its second half. Now, if the metathesis under the Latin name Arbanum had worked, we would have expected in Slavic to have * Rabonь or * Rabona, similar to Albona: Labin in Dalmatia. This also means that the name would have entered Slavonic from the Albanian form, and it would have been Įrbanė, Įrbėnė with emphasis on the initial a, while the unstressed vowels of Albanian following the word (a, ė) will have given vowels of reduced (ь) in Slavic. According to this the assumption can be advanced that by the end of the VIII century the Slavs would have known the space of Arbėn through the non-rhotacized Gheg form. Common form before Rhotacism it was also encountered by the Greeks, which means before the V-VI centuries. I think all of this adds to the arguments for the connection between
    Albanum, Alvanon of the XI century to the Albanoi, Albanopolis of the II century a.d
    , connection of which the Buda (Aleks Buda) supported with arguments of a historical nature. Views of this nature seem to justify the Cabej (Eqerem Cabej) not accepting Skok and others' interpretation of Lab's connection e Labėri with * Alb and * Albėri through the mentioned metathesis. variants * Alb and * Albėri have not been proven, but we have in the north the Illyrian tribe Labeates, in modern times the name of the river Llap and Laplje Selo in Prishtina, etc.


    Now actually there are some toponymyc evidences that further corroborate the metathetic form Arbėnė - Rabьnь:

    - Rabanofc (Rabanovc) - located in south of Podujeva \ Besiana, northeast Kosova, in the basis of the Serbian Chrysobulls and Ottoman Defters.

    https://imgur.com/S8aVnQ0

    - Rabini Grobishta - to the Torbesh population of the village Papradnik of Dibra (N.M), from the Tombs of the Arbins (Albanians).

    - Raban - pasture in Rusinovo of Bregallnica (N.M). This topic should contain the personal name Arban, quite common in these areas in the medieval period, which with the well-known metathesis of Slavic liquids gave Raban, in this case with the meaning "pasture of Raban / Arbanas", and not as Olga Ivanova puts it (Ivanova 1996: 528) to have come from a personal name assumed by her * Rabanjь, this one from Raban, Rab (e) + an, e rab "slave, servant".

    - Rabanov Dol - dry valley in the region of Kamenica in Bregallnica (N.M) (Ivanova 1996: 528). Even this toponym should in fact be explained as above, through metathetic formation by * Arbanov Dol - Arbanas valley

    - Raban - Village in Skrapar south Albania, evidenced the first time from the Defter of Albania \ Arvanid year 1431.

    Actually even Xh.Ylli in "Das slavische Lehngut im Albanischen" had it difficult to give a persuasive and definitive explanation!

    - Rabani, Iskrapar;
    1856 (SK) A. B. Zum PN Рабан, РЛФИБ 415, + -j'ķ ohne den alb. Lautwandel n + j> nj, vgl. Bogdan. Die Be- tonung auf der ersten Silbe ist schwierig zu erklären, vgl. Bézhan, Péshtan usw. C. PO 144 Rabaneco.

    - Rabani, Iskrapar;
    1856 (SK) A. B. To the PN Raban, RLFIB 415, + -j'ķ without the alb. Sound change n + j> nj, see Bogdan. The stress on the first syllable is difficult to explain, see Bézhan, Péshtan etc. C. PO 144 Rabaneco.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    John Wilkes in his book The Illyrians quotes an excerpt from Appian's The Civil Wars covering the history of Durrės prior to its colonization by the Corcyreans, although it should be mentioned that there are mythical aspects to this recounting which is to be expected with sources from this time period, that I will skip:

    "In a later period the Bryges, returning from Phrygia, seized the city and surrounding territory, then the Taulantii, an Illyrian people, took it from them and the Liburni, another Illyrian people, took it from the Taulantii... Those expelled from Dyrrhachium by the Liburnians obtained help from the Corcyraeans then masters of the sea and drove out the Liburni."

    Wilkes then states the following:

    "The Illyrian element in the Greek colony appears to be borne out by the contents of early cemeteries, in which Corinthian grave-pottery of the seventh and sixth centuries is found alongside cremation urns of the local type. The successive rule of Taulantii and Liburni in the historical tradition may represent the southward movement of Illyrian peoples during the early Iron Age from around 1000 BC into the area known as Illyris."

    However what should be noted is that some have suggested that in this case Liburni may not have referred to the Liburni tribe themselves, but rather referred to groups of indigenous Illyrian peoples from the Adriatic that the Corcyreans and other Greeks had conflicts with. This view is explained in the paper 'Illyrians' in Ancient Ethnographic Discourse:

    "The study of Čače, however, challenged the assumption of Liburnian thalassocracy and enabled far-reaching conclusions approaching the problem from a different perspective. After reconsidering the existing evidence, he postulated that the stories of the Liburni in the southern Adriatic must be anachronistically insterted. Čače assumed that the origin of these stories lays in the conflicts, which probably occurred between the Corcyreans and indigenous population in the northern Adriatic, as the Corcyreans tried to control maritime routes with the valley of the river Po, in the sixth and fifth century BC. Thus, in his opinion, the Liburni received a negative image through those conflicts with the Corcyreans and were discursively constructed as 'pirates and the enemies of the Greeks' in the Greek perception... Historical memories of such perceptions might have been preserved in some Roman authors. Florus uses the words 'Illyrians' and 'Liburni' as synonyms: "Illyrians or Liburni" (Illyrii seu Liburni)."

    I have that book...which page do you refer to

    The liburnian neighbours where the Iapodes/Iagygians ( same people ) who lived in the interior of the coastal Liburni.......it seems they where allied or from the same branch ...................which begs to say that the Histrians are also referred to as Liburnians sometimes.
    Last edited by vettor; 01-22-2021 at 12:38 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I have that book...which page do you refer to

    The liburnian neighbours where the Iapodes/Iagygians ( same people ) who lived in the interior of the coastal Liburni.......it seems they where allied or from the same branch ...................which begs to say that the Histrians are also referred to as Liburnians sometimes.
    The excerpt is on page 111.

    The Liburni are an interesting case since they are generally referred to as belonging to the wider Illyrian world, but certain linguists and historians consider them to have been linguistically distinct to the bulk of the Illyrian peoples. Based on anthroponyms and onomastics some scholars such as Géza Alföldy placed the Liburnian language within the same branch of Indo-European as Venetic. However, others have argued that the linguistic and cultural situation was more complex. Jürgen Untermann for example broke the territory of the Liburnians into three onomastic areas based on personal names: in the first, most names are similar to those of the Veneti and Histri, with the area roughly corresponding to the north and Istrian coast; the second area is more connected to the Illyrians located to the south, such as the Delmatae and Iapodes/Iapydes; with the third area being unrelated to the neighbouring populations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The excerpt is on page 111.

    The Liburni are an interesting case since they are generally referred to as belonging to the wider Illyrian world, but certain linguists and historians consider them to have been linguistically distinct to the bulk of the Illyrian peoples. Based on anthroponyms and onomastics some scholars such as Géza Alföldy placed the Liburnian language within the same branch of Indo-European as Venetic. However, others have argued that the linguistic and cultural situation was more complex. Jürgen Untermann for example broke the territory of the Liburnians into three onomastic areas based on personal names: in the first, most names are similar to those of the Veneti and Histri, with the area roughly corresponding to the north and Istrian coast; the second area is more connected to the Illyrians located to the south, such as the Delmatae and Iapodes/Iapydes; with the third area being unrelated to the neighbouring populations.
    the realms of ancient language !? .....................some is ok and some is not

    https://www.academia.edu/35019586/Gr...ges_in_Contact

    The liburni are also responsible for colonizing Picene lands ( marche Italy ) ...............sample R1 is a Liburnian woman, born in Liburnia , died in Picene

    The Liburnians with the Iapodes also colonised/conquered Foggia area with the Daunii tribes ( as well as Messapics and other ) before moving down the coast taking all Apulian lands......................there is even a study in Italy looking at Messapic language being a Iapodes/Liburnian language mixing with the conquered Italic tribes forming this Messapic language

    The Italians also state.......The Illyrian Iapodi tribe. They are a mixed race of Celts and Illyrians, who used Celtic weapons and tattoos, ...............we known the Messapics and their fellow tribes Daunii also tattooed , even the women


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  7. #1665
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    In regards to tattooing, Strabo states in his Geographica that it was practiced among the other tribes of Illyria as well as in the Iapydes ("they are tattooed like the rest of the Illyrians and the Thracians"). So while there may have been some Celtic influence, the general practice of tattooing likely is of local provenance. Bronze needles used for tattooing have also been found in a number of Illyrian archaeological sites.

    Based on the evidence that I have seen, the core element of the Iapydes seems to have been a local Illyrian one. With Celtic and Venetic-Liburnian influences coming in later due to intense cultural contact, especially with the latter.
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    In his book Ancient Languages of the Balkans, Radoslav Katičić broke down Illyria into three major onomastic areas based on anthroponymy (North-Adriatic, Illyrian, and Delmato-Pannonian), which is important when considering the ethno-linguistic identities and backgrounds of these tribes:

    "It could be shown that the native anthroponymy of the Liburnian territory has its own characteristic inventory of names and a special type of semi-Romanized onomastic formula. Such names that recur characteristically in Liburnia area: Aetor, Aplus, Ceunus, Darmocus, Oeplus, Oia, Opiavus, Opia, Oplus, Oplica, Raecus, Suioca, Vadicus, Vescleves, Veturia, Viniocus, Volso, Voltissa. These names are concentrated on the Liburnian territory whereas elsewhere in Illyricum there are but a few random records in places neighbouring on Liburnia... The Liburnian anthroponymy proved soon to be only one part of a much larger onomastic complex which extended also to Histrian and Venetic anthroponymy and reached even the valleys of the eastern Alps. This onomastic system we shall call NORTH-ADRIATIC."

    "A similar concentration of the areal distribution of onomastic elements could be established for the Illyrian south-east. The author of this survey made the observation that some of the names connected with the south-east do not appear in the central regions where many native names are recorded. After the publication of the first paper on this subject the inscriptions of a necropolis near Dyrrachium became known, and the names were to a remarkable extent exactly those which one would expect as characteristic for the south-east. Such names that recur characteristically in the south-east area: Annaeus, Bardylis, Kalas, Cilles, Clevatus, Epicadus, Etleva, Etuta, Ettritus, Gentius, Glavus, Grabon, Monunius, Pinnes, Plassus, Pleuratus, Skerdilaidas, Temus, Teutana, Verzo, Zanatis. This onomastic system belongs to the territory of the ancient Illyrian state and can therefore properly be called ILLYRIAN."

    "In the central region a third type of anthroponymy could be detected. Its area encompasses the territory of the Delmatae, that of the Iapods, and, in a broader sense, the country of the Pannonian tribes to the south as well as to the north of the Sava. Characteristic names are: Anna, Andes, Aplis, Aplo, Apludus, Baezus, Baezo, Carpius, Carvius, Cato, Cursulavia, Dasant-, Dasto, Diteius, Dito, Germanus, Gresa, Lavius, Lavo, Paius, Paio, Panes, Panentius, Panico, Pant-, Panto, Pinent-, Pinsus, Pladomenus, Plahes, Planus, Platino, Prevo, Samuntius, Samuntio, Scaeva, Scenobarbus, Scenocalus, Seius, Seio, Sinus, Stataria, Staticus, Stennas, Stennato, Suttis, Testimos, Testo, Tizius, Tritanus, Tritano, Tritaneria, Tudania, Varro, Vendes, Vendo... We know too little about this region to draw any final conclusions. But so far one can contend confidently that the anthroponymy of the Pannonian tribes belongs to the same general type as that of the Delmatae and of the Iapods. This onomastic complex we may call DELMATO-PANNONIAN."

    Also:

    "A special problem is posed by the anthroponymy of the Dardanian territory. Some of the natives names recorded there belong to the Illyrian (Monunius, Etuta, Epicadus, Scerulaedus), some other belong to the Delmato-Pannonian system (Andia, Anna, Dasius, Plannius). In eastern Dardania the native names are predominantly Thracian. It seems that in the west of Dardania an originally Illyrian anthroponymy was superseded by a Delmato-Pannonian stratum."
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    In his book Ancient Languages of the Balkans, Radoslav Katičić broke down Illyria into three major onomastic areas based on anthroponymy (North-Adriatic, Illyrian, and Delmato-Pannonian), which is important when considering the ethno-linguistic identities and backgrounds of these tribes:

    "It could be shown that the native anthroponymy of the Liburnian territory has its own characteristic inventory of names and a special type of semi-Romanized onomastic formula. Such names that recur characteristically in Liburnia area: Aetor, Aplus, Ceunus, Darmocus, Oeplus, Oia, Opiavus, Opia, Oplus, Oplica, Raecus, Suioca, Vadicus, Vescleves, Veturia, Viniocus, Volso, Voltissa. These names are concentrated on the Liburnian territory whereas elsewhere in Illyricum there are but a few random records in places neighbouring on Liburnia... The Liburnian anthroponymy proved soon to be only one part of a much larger onomastic complex which extended also to Histrian and Venetic anthroponymy and reached even the valleys of the eastern Alps. This onomastic system we shall call NORTH-ADRIATIC."

    "A similar concentration of the areal distribution of onomastic elements could be established for the Illyrian south-east. The author of this survey made the observation that some of the names connected with the south-east do not appear in the central regions where many native names are recorded. After the publication of the first paper on this subject the inscriptions of a necropolis near Dyrrachium became known, and the names were to a remarkable extent exactly those which one would expect as characteristic for the south-east. Such names that recur characteristically in the south-east area: Annaeus, Bardylis, Kalas, Cilles, Clevatus, Epicadus, Etleva, Etuta, Ettritus, Gentius, Glavus, Grabon, Monunius, Pinnes, Plassus, Pleuratus, Skerdilaidas, Temus, Teutana, Verzo, Zanatis. This onomastic system belongs to the territory of the ancient Illyrian state and can therefore properly be called ILLYRIAN."

    "In the central region a third type of anthroponymy could be detected. Its area encompasses the territory of the Delmatae, that of the Iapods, and, in a broader sense, the country of the Pannonian tribes to the south as well as to the north of the Sava. Characteristic names are: Anna, Andes, Aplis, Aplo, Apludus, Baezus, Baezo, Carpius, Carvius, Cato, Cursulavia, Dasant-, Dasto, Diteius, Dito, Germanus, Gresa, Lavius, Lavo, Paius, Paio, Panes, Panentius, Panico, Pant-, Panto, Pinent-, Pinsus, Pladomenus, Plahes, Planus, Platino, Prevo, Samuntius, Samuntio, Scaeva, Scenobarbus, Scenocalus, Seius, Seio, Sinus, Stataria, Staticus, Stennas, Stennato, Suttis, Testimos, Testo, Tizius, Tritanus, Tritano, Tritaneria, Tudania, Varro, Vendes, Vendo... We know too little about this region to draw any final conclusions. But so far one can contend confidently that the anthroponymy of the Pannonian tribes belongs to the same general type as that of the Delmatae and of the Iapods. This onomastic complex we may call DELMATO-PANNONIAN."

    Also:

    "A special problem is posed by the anthroponymy of the Dardanian territory. Some of the natives names recorded there belong to the Illyrian (Monunius, Etuta, Epicadus, Scerulaedus), some other belong to the Delmato-Pannonian system (Andia, Anna, Dasius, Plannius). In eastern Dardania the native names are predominantly Thracian. It seems that in the west of Dardania an originally Illyrian anthroponymy was superseded by a Delmato-Pannonian stratum."
    I think the terminology of what is what changes on who wrote the history .....example for Rome, Illyria went from ancient Liburnia to the modern border of Montenegro including the Pannonians, but not venetic or histrians

    Ancient scholars state that venetic-liburnian-histrian people are the most northern illyrian population with Tergese ( Trieste ) as its centre

    Italian scholars state Illyria went from Histria to northern Albania but the pannonians are not Illyrians

    Halstatt scholars state Illyria started in eastern Austria to Dalmatia ............might be via Strabo texts

    Illyrian revolt states these tribes as illyrian via Pliny census




    I think the true answer will never be found as people where mixing a lot due to trade and "others"
    Last edited by vettor; 01-22-2021 at 11:28 PM.


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  12. #1668
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    I think the Illyrians were a mixture between earlier Bronze Age Indo-Europeans and incoming Danubian tribes (Middle Danubian groups living south of Knovitz-Lusatians) during Late Bronze Age. Hence why there is confusion because some of the tribes didn't admix and kept their unique customs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I think the Illyrians were a mixture between earlier Bronze Age Indo-Europeans and incoming Danubian tribes (Middle Danubian groups living south of Knovitz-Lusatians) during Late Bronze Age. Hence why there is confusion because some of the tribes didn't admix and kept their unique customs.
    To add to this, Gimbutas thought part of the ancestors of Illyrians were part of Koszidor horizont.

    Around the time of the Thera eruption important transformations occurred in the Carpathian Basin, today covering
    Hungary and parts of Austria, Slovakia, the Ukraine, Romania, Serbia and Croatia (Fig. 1). This is the so-called Koszider
    Period, which corresponds to the last phase of the Middle
    Bronze Age (MBA) according to the Hungarian terminology,
    and represents a transition to the Late Bronze Age (LBA).
    The assessment of the period has been controversial among
    both Hungarian and central European scholars.
    The eponymous bronze hoards that had been found in
    the uppermost layers of the tell settlement of DunaśjvįrosKosziderpadlįs were published by A. Mozsolics and I. Bóna
    in the 195os together with other hoards of similar composition. The burial of the hoards – based on the traditional concept of culture and then dated to 135o B.C. – was connected
    to the attack of the mobile pastoralist warriors of the
    »Tumulus Culture« from southern Germany, whose appearance brought an end to the flourishing »Tell Cultures« of the
    Danube and Tisza regions1. Accordingly, the Koszider
    Period was considered a short, war-ridden and turbulent phase.

    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/18406091.pdf
    Harry Mountain was of the opinion that this Tumulus Warriors heavily influenced Dacians as well. I am not sure if part of Illyrian ancestors were this Tumuli Warriors or those Tell and Tisza people who ran away after they lost the war.
    Last edited by Hawk; 01-23-2021 at 11:53 AM.

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    I saw on a Facebook post that the Rrėnjėt project has added a mtDNA chart to their statistics page. The chart is made up of 101 samples as of now, and the three most dominant haplogroups are H at ~48.5% (49/101), U at ~13.9% (14/101), and J at ~8.9% (9/101). Unfortunately, specific clusters for many of the samples have not been defined as of yet. However, for those which have been defined, H55b1, H12a, and J1c2e* have shown up.

    On the Yfull MTree, haplogroup H55b1 so far is shared with five Albanians and four samples from Serbia, with all nine sharing a TMRCA of ~1,150 ybp. I am unsure if these samples from Serbia are indeed ethnic Serbs, or if they are Kosovo Albanians considering that Yfull does not recognize Kosovo as an independent country, but it is still possible that they're Serbs. There are also two samples from Serbia upstream at H55b*.

    H12a is shared between three Albanian samples, three Italian samples, one Serbian sample, one Hungarian sample, and a single Finnish sample. They all share a TMRCA of ~1,450 ybp. What's interesting is that H12* was found in an ancient sample (R1283) from early medieval Rome (539-1179 CE) whose paternal haplogroup was J2b-PF7321. The parallel cluster, H12b, so far is only made up of three Italian samples so H12 as a whole maybe has some connection to the Italian Peninsula.

    J1c2e* has been found in multiple samples from the Balkans, including; Albania, Croatia, Romania, Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria. However, it has also been found in samples from the Netherlands, Italy, and Turkey and unlike the other two clusters this group has an older TMRCA of ~6,300 ybp. The downstreams of J1c2e are found across Europe and even in Western Asia (Iran).
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

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