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Thread: Albanian DNA Project

  1. #1671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcelow View Post
    Not sure, but Dropull in this instance may refer to the wider ecclesiastical region of Dryinoupolis, which included the wider region of Gjirokaster, which of course contains both Greek and Albanian speaking villages. Also, concerning Delvina, Kelmendasi recently posted an article that references the inhabitants of this region as speaking Greek. But of course, there are Albanian speaking christian villages in this region such as Sopik, Muzina, and Mursi. Either way, my point is that the occurrence of these names in the medieval defters doesnt prove or disprove the Greekness of these people today.
    You might be interested in this reply by a "anonymous" writer from Dropull published in gazetatema(One of the most read news sites in Albania)

    Te pathenat e Dropullit
    http://www.gazetatema.net/2021/01/24...t-e-dropullit/

    In my opinion, his arguments against the documentary are very weak. He fails to address 90% of documents and facts raised in the documentary. He also bases his conclusion on dodgy and nationalistic viewpoints which are factually wrong. Namely, he takes the viewpoint that Albanians didn't inhabit Epirus during the late Middle Ages, which is categorically wrong.

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  3. #1672
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    I have looked at the Yfull Mtree for more clusters that have at least two Albanian samples on the tree, and have found a few:

    One mtDNA cluster with two Albanian samples is H13a1a1e. Alongside the Albanians, this group is represented by two samples from Serbia, two from Poland, and an ancient DNA sample (KRA009, 1158-1254 CE) from the medieval site of Krakauer Berg in the Saxony-Anhalt state of Germany. This sample, like the other samples from this site, was likely of Slavic origin. The TMRCA for this group is ~1,750 ybp, and this alongside its distribution makes me think that a Slavic origin is most likely.

    Another group under H is H14a4a, and this cluster also has two Albanian samples so far who have a TMRCA of ~700 ybp. However, upstream at H14a4* there is only a single Italian sample and the TMRCA for this group is ~4,400 ybp which is rather old.

    H6a2b is also represented by two Albanians on the tree, alongside two Serbian samples and a Slavic Macedonian from Greek Macedonia (Pella). These samples share a TMRCA of ~1,250 ybp. What is interesting is that the other clusters under H6a2 have more Northwestern European distributions, with clusters found in places such as Ireland and Denmark. H6a2a has been found in a Viking Age sample from Dorset in southwest England (VK449, 970-1025 CE).
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

  4. #1673
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    Quote Originally Posted by trdbr1234 View Post
    You might be interested in this reply by a "anonymous" writer from Dropull published in gazetatema(One of the most read news sites in Albania)

    Te pathenat e Dropullit
    http://www.gazetatema.net/2021/01/24...t-e-dropullit/

    In my opinion, his arguments against the documentary are very weak. He fails to address 90% of documents and facts raised in the documentary. He also bases his conclusion on dodgy and nationalistic viewpoints which are factually wrong. Namely, he takes the viewpoint that Albanians didn't inhabit Epirus during the late Middle Ages, which is categorically wrong.
    What is Ferit Duka's actual argument, is it that because the names dont end with "s", the inhabitants aren't Greek? In Liakopoulos' book on the 1462 census of the Peloponnese, most surnames lack the "s" as well, even in villages that are characterized as ethnically Greek. We often see names like "Yani Yorgoplo" or "Yorgo Stilyano"

    Or is it that the vast majority of names are typically Albanian and not Greek? Do names like Jorgo and Jani appear? Do they appear in conjunction with names like Gjon and Gjin?

    If there were no Greeks in the region, How does he explain the Greek toponyms that were recorded there nearly a century earlier in the defter of 1431? For example, Schoriades, Lachanokastro, Pontikates, Mavropul, Drimades, Finiki, Mesopotam, Krayne, Ayo Andre, among others?

     


    Honestly, I'm not even sure purchasing Ferit's work (if it is available in the United States), is even worth it when he so obviously has an anti-Greek agenda. His clearly nationalistic approach renders his work questionable at best.

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  6. #1674
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    I believe one of the main arguments is that the vast majority of the anthroponymy recorded in Dropull are Albanian variants or diminutives of typical Christian names that were found across Albanian-speaking regions during the medieval. And so, this, alongside other things referenced by the authors (such as documents of movements from Greece), suggests that there was a process of Hellenization in the region during the sixteenth century and onwards. Though I have not read Duka's book so I am not 100% sure as to his opinion, this is just the impression I got from the documentary.

    As for the anthroponymy, in the village of Goranxi tė Sipėrme it is referenced from Duka's work that Gjon and Gjin were the most dominant personal names and patronyms. With the former showing up thirty times, and the latter showing up around twenty times. From the excerpt I have seen, names such as Jorgo or Jani do not appear in this village. However in Derviēan, whilst Albanian names seem to be most dominant here as well, certain individuals such as Jani Gjini, Jorgo Gjoni, Jorgo Babi, Jani Ēuni, and Jani Dragoi do show up.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  8. #1675
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I believe one of the main arguments is that the vast majority of the anthroponymy recorded in Dropull are Albanian variants or diminutives of typical Christian names that were found across Albanian-speaking regions during the medieval. And so, this, alongside other things referenced by the authors (such as documents of movements from Greece), suggests that there was a process of Hellenization in the region during the sixteenth century and onwards. Though I have not read Duka's book so I am not 100% sure as to his opinion, this is just the impression I got from the documentary.

    As for the anthroponymy, in the village of Goranxi tė Sipėrme it is referenced from Duka's work that Gjon and Gjin were the most dominant personal names and patronyms. With the former showing up thirty times, and the latter showing up around twenty times. From the excerpt I have seen, names such as Jorgo or Jani do not appear in this village. However in Derviēan, whilst Albanian names seem to be most dominant here as well, certain individuals such as Jani Gjini, Jorgo Gjoni, Jorgo Babi, Jani Ēuni, and Jani Dragoi do show up.
    It seems that he centers his case around the village of Goranxi, many inhabitants of which possessed typical Albanian personal names (although its unclear whether they formed the majority). But he admits that this village had a higher amount of Albanian personal names than do the other villages of Dropoli.

    "The first names Gjon and Gjin as well as other Albanian first names are find in the same register (Defter) - more here and less elsewhere -even in other villages of Dropull, including the village of Derviēan, near Gjirokastėr"

    Regarding Dervican, he only gives us those few examples which you have mentioned in your post, but admits that the village was under heavy "hellenization", which just seems to be a way of dodging the fact that the Greek character of names dominated there. And the names that he does mention are usually accompanied by a Greek name, such as "Jani Gjini", "Jorgo Gjoni", and even "Gjon Papadopulo". To me, that suggests a Greek-Albanian symbiosis in the borderlands between Greek and Albanian speech.

    He also admits that the majority of names in Sofratika were Greek.

    "While in Sofratikė (among 61 heads of household) the first name Gjin (Gjin Pavllo) is encountered only once, and the first name Gjon twice among the heads of household: "Land of the widow Marie, daughter of Gjon, in place of Gjon. In this village there are other Albanian names such as: Niko Ballēi, Dhimo Ballēi, Mano Ballēi, Vreto Leka, Niko Papileka, Staso Dimali. From names of heads of household in this village dominate those of origin Greek such as Jani, Jorgo, Pavllo, Aleks etc."

    http://www.akad.gov.al/ash/images/PD...aAlbanica1.pdf

    Anyway, I dont want to keep posting on this thread since it is dedicated to Albanian genetics, so this will be my last post on the topic.

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  10. #1676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Du Cange in his Historia Byzantina duplici commentario illustrata of 1680.
    Another interesting thing about Du Cange's genealogy (which is largely based on Giovanni Andrea Angelo Flavio Comneno's one) on the Kastrioti is that he mentions that the son of Konstantin Kastrioti Mazreku, and father of Gjon Kastrioti, was actually called Gjergj (Georgius in the original) as opposed to Pal (Paulo in the original). This Gjergj Kastrioti is also given the title of Lord of Mati, a region called Umenestria which may correspond to the village of Ujmisht to the south of Kukės, and Castoriae (Aemathiae, Umenestria, & Castoriae Princeps). The name Pal is apparently only brought up in Gjon Muzaka's Breve memoria de li discendenti de nostra casa Musachi of 1510.

    Muzaka's work is rather dubious since he downplays the significance and importance of many other Albanian noble families, he even claims that Pal Kastrioti, who according to him was Skanderbeg's grandfather, only held two villages: Sinė and Gardhi i Poshtėm (Signa and Gardi Ipostesi in the original) which are located in the former tribal and ethnographic region of Ēidhėn in Dibėr. This is unlikely as it would mean that his son, Gjon Kastrioti, was able to extremely expand the dominion of the Kastrioti within the timeframe of a single generation.

    Should also be mentioned that the name Pal or its other variants such as Paulo, were not inherited as name for either of his grandsons or even great-grandsons. On the other hand names such as, Gjergj (Georgius, Giorgio, etc), Gjon (Giovanni, Iohannes, etc), and Konstantin (Constantinus, Constantino, etc) were inherited by later Kastrioti.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 01-25-2021 at 05:12 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  12. #1677
    I would like to clarify some things mentioned on the South Slavic thread on R-Z2705. It seems more appropriate to do that here.

    - The density of R-Z2705 in Albanians of course varies by region, but among Y-DNA lines that spread around 1200-1700 ago, it is by far both the most frequent overall, and the most evenly spread. It is only low <5% in these districts (rrethe): Bulqize 3.8% (2/53); Elbasan 4.2% (1/24); Permet 4.8% (1/21). Everywhere else, including Western Macedonia, it is found more frequently. Even Diber e Madhe is currently at 7.7% (1/13). And keep in mind that these figures are still higher than the percentage in neighboring countries, excluding Montenegro.
    - Among current subclades, only BY147912* and BY199059 have not been found in Albanians. Even these include respectively one person from Sanxhak, and one Serb from Kosove who claims Albanian ancestry (still to be verified of course). Please refer to www.rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/ for latest results and subclades.
    - Bulgaria and Romania have no basal R-Z2705 results. This was an intriguing idea a few years ago when some haplotypes had not been SNP-verified, but now we know their classification, and there are no Bulgarian or Romanian results that can belong to the oldest clades. From various studies, haplotypes that have any chance of being in undiscovered R-Z2705+, BY38894- and BY105603- are found in Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania (both Gheg and Tosk), Greece, Skopje, and maybe Sicily.

    So it is simply unthinkable for R-Z2705 to not have played a central role in the Albanian genesis during the Early Middle Ages. Of course this does not mean that regions with lower density of it are any less Albanian because of it, as many other Y-DNA lines were involved in this process, and each region has its specific history and haplogroup distribution.
    Last edited by Rrenjet.; 02-16-2021 at 08:10 PM.

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  14. #1678
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    Mendoj qe R-Z2705 krijon shume ndjeshmeri edhe nuk besoj se do kemi bisedim te sinqert ne lidhje me historikun e kesaj linje. Linjat bazale Bullgare te R-Z2705 i ke ne haplotree'n qe keni krijuar, po ashtu i keni ne Y-full. Nuk kuptoj pse beni deklarate ne kundershtim me informacionet qe vet i keni krijuar. Dua po ashtu te theksoj qe eshte komplet e parendesishme neqoftese R-Z2705 ka qene nga antikiteti, ka ardhur dje, pardje, ka qene e Skenderbeut, a Akilit, apo nga stepet e Rusise. Ky fakt as nuk i kombtarizon as i c'kombtarizon poseduesit e ketij haplogrupit. Por ne baze te infomacionet e deri tanishme, eshte disi e qarte qe R-Z2705, me vecanti te nje nendege te saj R-BY105603, nuk perputhet me shperndarjen te supozuar te komb formimit Arberor. Mbase keni sopozime te forta qe priten te verifikohen, mbase keni informacione qe nuk i keni publikuar. Neqoftese kam bere gabim fatal ne kete shtjellim, do kisha shume dishire te na informoje. Po te keni informacionet shtese mbi atyre qe keni publikuar, do isha mirenjohes.
    Last edited by trdbr1234; 02-16-2021 at 09:31 PM.

  15. #1679
    Quote Originally Posted by trdbr1234 View Post
    Mendoj qe R-Z2705 krijon shume ndjeshmeri edhe nuk besoj se do kemi bisedim te sinqert ne lidhje me historikun e kesaj linje. Linjat bazale Bullgare te R-Z2705 i ke ne haplotree'n qe keni krijuar, po ashtu i keni ne Y-full. Nuk kuptoj pse beni deklarate ne kundershtim me informacionet qe vet i keni krijuar. Dua po ashtu te theksoj qe eshte komplet e parendesishme neqoftese R-Z2705 ka qene nga antikiteti, ka ardhur dje, pardje, ka qene e Skenderbeut, a Akilit, apo nga stepet e Rusise. Ky fakt as nuk i kombtarizon as i c'kombtarizon poseduesit e ketij haplogrupit. Por ne baze te infomacionet e deri tanishme, eshte disi e qarte qe R-Z2705, me vecanti te nje nendege te saj R-BY105603, nuk perputhet me shperndarjen te supozuar te komb formimit Arberor. Mbase keni sopozime te forta qe priten te verifikohen, mbase keni informacione qe nuk i keni publikuar. Neqoftese kam bere gabim fatal ne kete shtjellim, do kisha shume dishire te na informoje. Po te keni informacionet shtese mbi atyre qe keni publikuar, do isha mirenjohes.
    I'm answering in English just in case some foreigners may be interested. Besides the last sentence, I only presented the data, which does not care about sensitivities. And I did not mention the more distant ancestry of this line at all, as it was not relevant, only its spread from the Early Middle Ages onwards.

    Which Bulgarian lines are you referring to specifically? YFull and our tree only have one under R-BY218801 who is actually from SE Serbia, and whose family has a tradition of being from Montenegro, and in fact, he matches results from the Montenegrin part of Sanxhak, and more distantly Albanians from Nikaj, and all the rest are under either R-BY105603 or R-Y32147. The fact that all Bulgarians and Romanians in studies and projects lack R-Z2705+, BY38894- & BY105603- haplotypes was mentioned in our article too, so I am not sure which parts you find inconsistent.

    We do have some new results which are not in the tree but they have been published on the results page I linked above. We will put them on the tree very soon, right after a couple more high resolution tests are completed.

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  17. #1680
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    Which R1b-Z2705 clusters among the Bulgarians do you specifically consider to be basal? As can be seen of the phylogenetic tree and on Yfull, the bulk of Bulgarian Z2705 is in fact under the common cluster of Y32147. They are primarily under Y32147>FT166340>Y37280 and Y32147>Y126039. Even in these positions, the Bulgarians are not basal. There is a basal R1b-Y32147>FT166340 Albanian sample from Shkodra who forms a new parallel cluster, as well as clusters such as FT166340>Y207622 which is found in Albanians from Lunxhėri and a sample from Prizren, and FT166340>Y217583 which is represented by Montenegrin samples from around Podgorica (I believe the Zeta Lowlands).

    In regards to R1b-Y32147>Y126039, cluster Y126039>Y82919 which is parallel to the Bulgarian cluster seems to have an Albanian association. The sample from Mecca, Saudi Arabia, is in fact with origin from Sandžak. His brotherhood claims to have stemmed from the Bukumiri of Bratonožići, as historical documents confirm, the Bukumiri were an Albanian tribe or fis that had migrated and formed a katun (semi-nomadic pastoralist community) in Piper and Bratonožić, later being absorbed. Oral traditions of Sandžak even mention the presence of the Bukumiri as an Albanian but Orthodox brotherhood. The Y82919>BY53973 come from various brotherhoods that also claim origin from Albanian brotherhoods, such as the Muriqi who were a branch of the Kelmendi.

    The only non-Y32147 clusters present among the Bulgarians are R1b-Z2705>BY218801>FT62850 or R1b-Z2705>BY105603>Y182782. BY218801 has also been found in multiple samples from Sandžak that claim to have descended from the Kuēi, they form BY218801>FT140430 which is parallel to the Bulgarian BY218801>FT62850. There are also the two Albanian BY218801>Y153706 who originate from the Nikaj of Tropoja. R1b-BY105603 as a whole, even on Yfull, is represented by multiple Albanians, both Geg and Tosk.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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