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Thread: Albanian DNA Project

  1. #1731
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    R1a-Y35-YP4278

    United States of America Albania Macedonia
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Feel free to do so, this is an open discussion where you can state your opinions if you want to do so. Disagreement is not because you are causing offence, it is only because we do not agree with your interpretation and so are presenting our own. This thread was opened in order to promote and create discussions regarding Albanian Y-DNA and genetics.
    I though you were looking for evidence backing the thesis. I laid out 8 different point in this thread that define my thesis. I restated three that were addressed to you but went unanswered.

    It is another gif moment here.
    Last edited by trdbr1234; 02-23-2021 at 02:49 AM.

  2. #1732
    Quote Originally Posted by trdbr1234 View Post
    It is a bit difficult to ignore the semantics play while simultaneously denying the semantics here.
    Does * on Yfull denote basal or does it not? Do not play a semantics game. Yes No?
    If it does then 4/4 Bulgarians on Yfull are basal! A rate of 100%
    Samples with * are basal only for the clades they are in. If you want to consider them basal, they are basal for Z2705>BY38894>BY218801>FT62850, Z2705>BY38894>Y32147>FT166340>Y37280, Z2705>BY38894>Y32147>FT166340>Y37280>Y83258 and Z2705>BY38894>Y32147>Y126039.

    None of the Bulgarians is basal for Z2705 or its two immediate subclades Z2705>BY147912 and Z2705>BY38894, so if you want rate of basal R-Z2705, it's 0%.

    Quote Originally Posted by trdbr1234 View Post
    Albanian clades are relevant. However, we have to consider Albanians and Montenegrins are far more tested... ...That is completely ridiculous. You are relying on Y16 to guess their placements. lol Majority of these placements are your opinions more than probabilities. I question your methods at this point. I would like to also remind you that what is on Yfull is fact. We'll just agree to disagree.
    Once again, irrelevant. Those STRs are enough to place them with confidence. You could upgrade every single Bulgarian tested so far to BigY, none of them would be R-Z2705(xBY38894, xBY105603 - that means negative on BY38894 and BY105603). BY38894 haplotypes have DYS393=13 and BY105603 haplotypes have DYS392=11. You can check yourself rather than question everyone else. In all published studies and DNA projects, if you find even one R-Z2705 Bulgarian that lacks those values, please let us all know. Until then, all known Bulgarian haplotypes remain restricted to younger clades.

    Quote Originally Posted by trdbr1234 View Post
    It is safe to say at this point that Albanians are not ready to assume a Bulgarians origin of Z2705 just yet. It causes too much emotional harm. Saying that, it is probably not worth mentioning other clades from Bulgaria that show a similar pattern of distribution to Z2705. They too cause emotional harm.
    I am stating facts while you are talking about feelings, pretty clear who is being the emotional one.

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  4. #1733
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    R-Y133365 is another very interesting subclade of R-Y32147

    R-Y133365* has been found in Albania (x2), Montenegro (Plava) and Romania (Teleorman)

    The sample from Montenegro belongs to the Redžepagić/iqi-Rexhepagaj family of Plav(a). They come from the Gruemiri fis near Shkodra and moved to Plava in the 17th century. Writer Jashar Rexhepagiq, Hysen Rexhepagaj, member of the national assembly of Albania, and Ragip and Ahmet Rexhepagaj, two of the first teachers in Plav(a) and many others belong to this brotherhood.

    Another brotherhood from the Gruemiri in Plava-Gucia (Plav-Gusinje) are the Shabanagaj. Ali Pasha of Gucia, League of Prizren commander, was one of them. Hamdija Redžepagić/iqi who has written about the Rexhepagaj and the Shabanagaj claims that Rexhep (progenitor of the Rexhepagaj) and Shaban (progenitor of the Shabanagaj) were brothers, but this is probably a later simplification of their genealogical link. Their actual relation is a few generations older than these two figures as the historical data suggest.

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  6. #1734
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    70 new results in Project Rrėnjėt:

    E-V13 19
    R1b-M269 17
    J2b-L83 12
    I2a-L460 4
    I1-M253 3
    I2-L596 2
    I2a-M223 2
    R1a-M417 2
    E-M81 2
    T1a-M70 2
    J1-M267 1
    J2a-M410 1
    E-M132 1
    G2-P287 1
    R1b-V88 1


    Kukės: E-V13
    Kukės: E-V13
    Dibėr: E-V13
    Shkodėr: E-V13
    Sumė, Shkodėr: E-V13
    Sumė, Shkodėr: E-V13
    Kavajė, Tiranė: E-V13
    Strugė: E-V13
    Strugė: E-V13
    Morinė, Lipjan, Prishtinė: E-V13
    Kelmend, Guci: E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z16988>BY62310 (within E-Z16988)
    Berishė, Tropojė, Kukės: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93120
    Kukės: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y173822
    Lezhė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y146086 (within E-FGC11450)
    Vlorė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y146086
    Vlorė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y146086
    Gjirokastėr: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y146086
    Shipshan, Tropojė, Kukės: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>PH2180
    Podujevė, Prishtinė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>PH2180
    Strugė: R1b-V88
    Bulqizė: R1b-M269>PF7563
    Shalė, Shkodėr: R1b-M269>PF7563>Y83965>Y168201>FT25059
    Lezhė: R1b-M269>PF7563>Z29758>PF7566>FGC40202
    Strugė: R1b-M269>L23>L51
    Vlorė: R1b-M269>L23>L51
    Lushnje: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Lezhė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Kėrēovė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Bulqizė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Strugė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Ohėr: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Thaē, Ferizaj: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Hot, Pejė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Gramsh, Elbasan: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Berat: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Dibėr e Madhe: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Vlorė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
    Strugė: J2b-L283
    Fan, Mirditė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
    Selitė, Mirditė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
    Krasniqe, Vushtrri, Mitrovicė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
    Krasniqe, Tropojė, Kukės: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
    Kėrēovė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
    Korēė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
    Berishė, Prizren: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
    Nikaj, Tropojė, Kukės: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
    Kėrēovė: J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
    Mat, Dibėr: J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
    Strugė: J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
    Gjirokastėr: I2a-L460>P37>L621>CTS10228>Y3120
    Elbasan: I2a-L460>P37>L621>CTS10228>Y3120>Z17855
    Shkodėr: I2a-L460>P37>L621>CTS10228>Y3120>PH908
    Tiranė: I2a-L460>P37>L621>CTS10228>Y3120>PH908
    Kėrēovė: I2a-M223>L701>S25733
    Kėrēovė: I2a-M223>L1229>Z2068
    Morinė, Deēan, Gjakovė: I2-L596>Y16419
    Dibėr: I2-L596>Y14158>S6635>S6724>PF3885 (TMRCA 3,000ybp)
    Strugė: R1a-M417>M458>L1029>Y133361 (within R-L1029)
    Gjakovė: R1a-M417>CTS1211>YP343
    Krasniqe, Prizren: I1-M253
    Gash, Prishtinė: I1-M253>Z63>S2077>Y60985>BY207773 (within I-Y16437 - so far represented only in Albanians)
    Mat, Dibėr: I1-M253>Z58>Z138>S6277>S20289>FT61080 (within I-S20289)
    Pėrmet, Gjirokastėr: J1-M267>Z2217>Z1828>Y1842>Y4423>CTS1460>Y79665
    Kavajė, Tiranė: J2a-M410>M67>Z1847>Z467
    Sumė, Shkodėr: E-M81
    Sumė, Shkodėr: E-M81
    Bulqizė: E-M132
    Vlorė: G2-P287
    Gramsh: T1a-M70>Y11151>Y8614
    Berat: T1a-M70>L131>CTS933

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  8. #1735
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    T2

    Bulgaria
    Are the I2c results from Big Y? It is strange to see an Albanian with I2c1, I don't recollect anyone else ever found in the South Balkans. On the other hand I2c2 is rather common, very interested if the guy from Morinė, Deēan, Gjakovė. which I understand is in Kosovo has done the Big Y. My brother tested a few yeas ago and is I-BY4177. He has STR matches from SouthEast Serbia, Macedonia and Kosovo.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY4177/

  9. #1736
    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Are the I2c results from Big Y? It is strange to see an Albanian with I2c1, I don't recollect anyone else ever found in the South Balkans. On the other hand I2c2 is rather common, very interested if the guy from Morinė, Deēan, Gjakovė. which I understand is in Kosovo has done the Big Y. My brother tested a few yeas ago and is I-BY4177. He has STR matches from SouthEast Serbia, Macedonia and Kosovo.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY4177/
    Out of the Albanian results, only the one from Diber has done a high resolution test uploaded to YFull. The other two are at GD=8/37, so theoretically, they should be over 1000 years apart. I also checked your I-BY4177 cluster: your BigY sample is at GD=9/37 with the Morina one and GD=11/37 with the Kukes one. It would sure be interesting to check these distances by SNP.
    Last edited by Rrenjet.; 03-04-2021 at 10:15 AM.

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  11. #1737
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    Albanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-BY32817
    mtDNA (M)
    T1a1l
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-CTS1273*

    Albania Kosovo
    There is an interesting paper by Albanian anthropologist Nebi Bardhoshi on the fis or Albanian tribal community: Fisi nė mes Pėrfytyrimeve Antropologjike. In this paper, Bardhoshi states that the classification of ethnographic regions such as Dibra and Mati as belonging to the fis organization or community, as was perpetuated by western anthropologists such as Edith Durham, is erroneous and misinformed. He outlines that, while these regions are complex in regards to their social communities and organizations, there is no actual collective fis identity and that villages are made up of multiple families with different origins:

    "Krahina e Matit ėshtė njė bashkėsi sociale shumė komplekse. As banorėt e kėsaj zone, e as ndonjė dokument historik, nuk na mundėsojnė tė flasim pėr ndonjė memorie sociale apo vetėpėrfytyrim kolektiv tė kėsaj bashkėsie si fis. Termi fis pėrdoret edhe nė kėtė krahinė nė shumė kuptime, ndėr to dhe pėr bashkėsitė sociale pėrbėrse tė njė fshati. Nisur nga shėnimet etnografike mjaft tė detajuara tė mledhura nga Dilaver Kurti, del qartė se jo vetem qė krahina e Matit nuk ėshtė fis, por edhe familjet pėrbėrse tė fshatit nė kėtė krahinė nuk kanė prejardhje tė njėjtė fisnore. Ne kėtė rast etnografia e Durhamit nuk ėshtė as 'pjesėrisht e vėrtetė'. Gjithė gjasat janė qė Durhami tė kėtė qenė e keqinformuar pėr kėtė krahinė."

    "Dibra ėshtė njė tjetėr krahinė e pėrfytyruar si fis nė pėrshkrimet e Durham... Edhe Dibra nuk ėshtė aspak njė bashkėsi fisnore. Dibra, apo mė saktė nė Dibėr, ėshte aplikuar njė sistem social i cili ka ndėrthurur lidhjen territoriale me ato fisnore. Pėr shembull, nė Dibėr mali ėshtė bashkėsia sociale dhe politike qė krijon specifikat e kėsaj treve, e cila ka qenė jashtė vėmendjes sė antropologjisė perėndimore dhe asaj shqiptare. Mbi organizimin social dhe mbi tė drejtėn kanunore, falė punės sė Xhafer Martini, kemi tė dhėna mjaft provokuese... Nė Dibėr nuk kemi imagjinatėn kolektive lokale tė njė fisi imagjinar, tė tejfshati, apo tejkrahinor... Ndėrsa nė njė plan mė tė gjithė, lidhur kuptimin antropologjik tė malit, mund tė thuhet se ai ėshtė shpjeguar nga etnologu Mark Tirta dhe studiues tė tjerė nė kėta lėmenj... Nė Dibėr, ashtu si dhe nė krahinat e tjera, bashkėsia e fshatit ėshtė komplekse dhe pėrbėhet nga familje me prejardhje tė ndryshme fisnore a farefisnore."
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  13. #1738
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    There is an interesting paper by Albanian anthropologist Nebi Bardhoshi on the fis or Albanian tribal community: Fisi nė mes Pėrfytyrimeve Antropologjike. In this paper, Bardhoshi states that the classification of ethnographic regions such as Dibra and Mati as belonging to the fis organization or community, as was perpetuated by western anthropologists such as Edith Durham, is erroneous and misinformed. He outlines that, while these regions are complex in regards to their social communities and organizations, there is no actual collective fis identity and that villages are made up of multiple families with different origins:

    "Krahina e Matit ėshtė njė bashkėsi sociale shumė komplekse. As banorėt e kėsaj zone, e as ndonjė dokument historik, nuk na mundėsojnė tė flasim pėr ndonjė memorie sociale apo vetėpėrfytyrim kolektiv tė kėsaj bashkėsie si fis. Termi fis pėrdoret edhe nė kėtė krahinė nė shumė kuptime, ndėr to dhe pėr bashkėsitė sociale pėrbėrse tė njė fshati. Nisur nga shėnimet etnografike mjaft tė detajuara tė mledhura nga Dilaver Kurti, del qartė se jo vetem qė krahina e Matit nuk ėshtė fis, por edhe familjet pėrbėrse tė fshatit nė kėtė krahinė nuk kanė prejardhje tė njėjtė fisnore. Ne kėtė rast etnografia e Durhamit nuk ėshtė as 'pjesėrisht e vėrtetė'. Gjithė gjasat janė qė Durhami tė kėtė qenė e keqinformuar pėr kėtė krahinė."

    "Dibra ėshtė njė tjetėr krahinė e pėrfytyruar si fis nė pėrshkrimet e Durham... Edhe Dibra nuk ėshtė aspak njė bashkėsi fisnore. Dibra, apo mė saktė nė Dibėr, ėshte aplikuar njė sistem social i cili ka ndėrthurur lidhjen territoriale me ato fisnore. Pėr shembull, nė Dibėr mali ėshtė bashkėsia sociale dhe politike qė krijon specifikat e kėsaj treve, e cila ka qenė jashtė vėmendjes sė antropologjisė perėndimore dhe asaj shqiptare. Mbi organizimin social dhe mbi tė drejtėn kanunore, falė punės sė Xhafer Martini, kemi tė dhėna mjaft provokuese... Nė Dibėr nuk kemi imagjinatėn kolektive lokale tė njė fisi imagjinar, tė tejfshati, apo tejkrahinor... Ndėrsa nė njė plan mė tė gjithė, lidhur kuptimin antropologjik tė malit, mund tė thuhet se ai ėshtė shpjeguar nga etnologu Mark Tirta dhe studiues tė tjerė nė kėta lėmenj... Nė Dibėr, ashtu si dhe nė krahinat e tjera, bashkėsia e fshatit ėshtė komplekse dhe pėrbėhet nga familje me prejardhje tė ndryshme fisnore a farefisnore."
    And the fact of the matter is that is being reflected in Y dna results as well.
    As one moves from the extreme north of Albanian alps towards the south the village composition start to change. Shala tribe, as an example its all one male line, not just in a village but the whole valley/Bajrak. As a geographical gradient the composition of the village unit becomes more diverse as one moves towards Puka, South Mirdita, Dibra and Mat and even further south.
    At Rrenjet we are finding it more complicated to select people to test from these villages further south as it becomes more crucial to select from different lines in the village so as tests are not duplicated. But this also brings more diversity and potentially interesting new results/lines as well.

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  15. #1739
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    Albanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-BY32817
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    T1a1l
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-CTS1273*

    Albania Kosovo
    As has been mentioned by user Pribislav on the thread on the tribes of Montenegro, two individuals from the Serbian DNA project who have origin from the Bukmiri have tested as R1b-Y104972 which is a new cluster under Z2705>Y32147>Y37280.

    Thought it would be relevant to post this here as well since the Bukmiri were a medieval Albanian tribe, and so it is important in regards to the lineages of these older tribes that did not survive as tribal communities in Albania later on during the periods of Ottoman occupation.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 03-06-2021 at 08:21 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  17. #1740
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    I recently bought this book "Η ΕΠΑΡΧΙΑ ΣΕΡΒΙΩΝ ΤΟΝ 16ο ΑΙΩΝΑ ΜΕΣΑ ΑΠΟ ΟΘΩΜΑΝΙΚΕΣ ΠΗΓΕΣ"- "The Province of Serbia (Kozani Prefecture, Greece] in the 16th Century through Ottoman Sources".

    https://i.imgur.com/EK28qoD.jpg

    It's a Mufassal (detailed - with the list of the anthroponyms of the householders of every village) Defter of the area between today Kozani - Serbia (Serbitsa) written in the year 1502.

    https://i.imgur.com/z1VOfKp.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/syhTyx2.jpg

    Frankly it surprised me, idem as in the cases of Demir Hisar, Manastir(Bitola) and Kostur(Kastoria) !!
    You can check and judge by yourselfs !!

    Few examples:

    - Village Izvor - Λευκόβρυση, year 1502
    Kondo Gjergji and Gjin Gjura

    https://i.imgur.com/LV6BBcD.jpg

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Le...4!4d21.7791875


    - Village Ftelya - Πτελέα, year 1502
    Niko Glati (Gjati) and Vreto Marjani

    https://i.imgur.com/vkWDR2a.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/8r50Ch6.jpg

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pt...1!4d21.8794181


    - Village Mokri - Λιβαδερό, year 1502
    Dhimo Gjergji and Stamo Pali

    https://i.imgur.com/qfL6JDy.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/NOQvMoC.jpg

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Li...2!4d21.9447942

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