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Thread: Albanian DNA Project

  1. #1221
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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    The wine from the area is Cirņ, based on the Gaglioppo grape. I recommend it, if you can find it. Calabrian wine is fantastic but its hard to find
    I have heard of it. I would love to try it one day.
    Maternal Grandfather's Y Line: J-ZS1711
    Maternal Grandfather's mtDNA: K2b1
    Paternal Grandmother’s mtDNA: U5a1

  2. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tįltos View Post
    Thank you guys, very interesting with the Peloponnese. My family is from San Nicola dell'Alto. Years ago one of my cousins had been corresponding with family there. The family member that could translate English indicated that our family had been in the village for a very long time. The original surname was not remembered of my mother's direct paternal line there.

    He had sent a picture of my great great grandfather. In the photo he is in a military uniform, and looks to have been Bersaglieri. His hat had long black feathers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersaglieri
    He was born in 1858, just to give some context as to how far back I got in this line.
    He married Carmina Basta. She is from the same village. My understanding is this is one of the original villages given to soldiers under the command of Demetrio Reres that had helped the King of Naples with an uprising.
    Hey, Taltos. Hope you're safe and well.

    I did a bit of research in the past days. The Basta tribe was present in San Nicola dell'Alto since the very beginning, which means that it was part of the initial Albanian migration. It was also the most common surname in the village already in 1543. From the 1543 census the surnames of the village are: Basta, Bisulca, Canossa, Camideca, Carida, Carvisei, Clamaro, Como, Duca, Gangale, Gliaresti, Gliarisi, Grana, Incondissi, Lalti, Malicchia, Musacchio, Masi, Pangrati, Pillora, Scarriopolo and Tarassio.

    I've highlighted those which apart from Basta indicate in clear terms that these people came from the Myzeqe region, originally. Cola and Michele Basta are recorded in 1543 as leaders of the community.

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  4. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleschreiber View Post
    Hey, Taltos. Hope you're safe and well.

    I did a bit of research in the past days. The Basta tribe was present in San Nicola dell'Alto since the very beginning, which means that it was part of the initial Albanian migration. It was also the most common surname in the village already in 1543. From the 1543 census the surnames of the village are: Basta, Bisulca, Canossa, Camideca, Carida, Carvisei, Clamaro, Como, Duca, Gangale, Gliaresti, Gliarisi, Grana, Incondissi, Lalti, Malicchia, Musacchio, Masi, Pangrati, Pillora, Scarriopolo and Tarassio.

    I've highlighted those which apart from Basta indicate in clear terms that these people came from the Myzeqe region, originally. Cola and Michele Basta are recorded in 1543 as leaders of the community.
    These two surnames stuck out at me. Duca(Duka) and Camideca. Is it possible that the route of their migration went through Myzeqe? These two surnames are common in Diber (Golloborde more specifically). Although I know they are found in the south as well. Malichia is a surname that can be found in the region as well. Although this surname is found in Laberia as well I believe.

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  6. #1224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleschreiber View Post
    Personally, I think that we might get a result which hints towards a bit more intermarriage among the communities if the sample was larger, but nothing much more different than the existing results. What makes us think that the results should be different has to do with how we perceive the Ottoman Balkans: as a multicultural society with high mobility and high migration rates from region to region where communities regularly intermarried with each other. That is not the case though.

    Genetic studies just "break apart" the ideologization of history. The Ottoman Balkans weren't a free-for-all multicultural space as postmodern historiography would have us believe.

    I would like to have results from the Vlachs of Krushevo. The E-V13 component in modern Macedonians could also be the result of their slavicization, so exact lineages/clusters would be very revealing.
    I disagree. I don't think Albanian were living in a island of their own as I don't think other Balkan communities were living on their own separate island either. I think genetics has showed that Albanians have been the contributor far more than a recipient of gene flow. I don't think this applies to regions with mixed ethnicity such as Macedonia. I was reading this paper.

    A MIRROR FOR THE SUBORDINATED AND THE HUMILIATED AT THE BALKANS Concept and editorial: Prof. Aneta Svetieva
    https://docplayer.net/8785193-A-mirr...-svetieva.html

    Even-though I understand the biases of the different authors, I would like to quote one part.

    In the Turkish period and immediately after it, the most acceptablepublic ethnic name for the Islamised from Macedonia (Macedonians, Albanians andothers) was “Turk“, which gave a possibility for identification with the Turkish Muslimstate. Also, according to the popular opinion, “a Turk equals a Muslim and vice versa“.During the last century of the Turkish empire when the state did not have a realauthority over its territory and when the Albanian Muslims have acquired most of thefunctions of the state in the Western and North-western parts of ethnic Macedonia,the Albanian ethnic feeling started to gain strength. As a result of this situation, theprocess of Albanization of the Macedonian Islamized population has also gainedstrength. The old formulae that “a Turk equals a Muslim and vice versa“ started tochange and to emerge filled with new content, that is, that “an Albanian equals aMuslim and vice versa“. There are many examples, but a most typical one comes fromGorna Reka9 This is proved by the recent field research. For example, a Muslim fromGorna Reka would never identify himself with the ethnic name “Torbesh“ or “Shkret“.If he would be put in a situation today to publicly identify himself in ethnic terms, at alocal level he would identify himself as inhabitant of Gorna Reka, while in the officialcensus as an “Albanian“ (in the past as well as a “Turk“), contrary to their fellowChristian villagers who also identify themselves as inhabitants of Gorna Reka, but inthe official census as Macedonians. This phenomenon would not be strange if onewould not be aware that it is a matter of a mixed, culturally unique ethnic group of“Gornorekanci“ that belong to two confessions, but have mutual cultural characteristics(bylinguism=Albanian and Macedonian language, costume, economy, customary law,almost the whole folk calendar, folklore etc.).
    Kristo Frasheri in Historia E Dibres states that Koxhaxhik took part in the struggles of Dibra against the Ottomans. Even-though Koxhaxhik and the Zhupa area today speak and identify as Turkish. I think this paper illustrates that national identities have been fluid.

    I don't think it is fair to lump all Turks in Macedonia together, as I don't think it is fair to lump all "Torbesh" in Macedonia together. The different communities in Macedonia are not homogenous with one-another but for the most part heterogenous to one-another, in my opinion.

  7. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleschreiber View Post
    Hey, Taltos. Hope you're safe and well.

    I did a bit of research in the past days. The Basta tribe was present in San Nicola dell'Alto since the very beginning, which means that it was part of the initial Albanian migration. It was also the most common surname in the village already in 1543. From the 1543 census the surnames of the village are: Basta, Bisulca, Canossa, Camideca, Carida, Carvisei, Clamaro, Como, Duca, Gangale, Gliaresti, Gliarisi, Grana, Incondissi, Lalti, Malicchia, Musacchio, Masi, Pangrati, Pillora, Scarriopolo and Tarassio.

    I've highlighted those which apart from Basta indicate in clear terms that these people came from the Myzeqe region, originally. Cola and Michele Basta are recorded in 1543 as leaders of the community.
    Hi Maleschreiber, thank you very much I am doing good. I hope you are safe, and well too. These are strange days. Hopefully we put this Pandemic behind us sooner than later.

    Wow and thank you very much for finding the names from the 1543 census! Amazing! Besides the Basta that I know for sure, autosomal matches that we get are to Musacchio, and Gangale! I haven't quite had time to compare all the surnames to all the kits I manage from my family. It will be interesting to see if there will be more. I can't help but wonder if my grandfather's original surname name is among those you have listed.
    Maternal Grandfather's Y Line: J-ZS1711
    Maternal Grandfather's mtDNA: K2b1
    Paternal Grandmother’s mtDNA: U5a1

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  9. #1226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tįltos View Post
    Hi Maleschreiber, thank you very much I am doing good. I hope you are safe, and well too. These are strange days. Hopefully we put this Pandemic behind us sooner than later.

    Wow and thank you very much for finding the names from the 1543 census! Amazing! Besides the Basta that I know for sure, autosomal matches that we get are to Musacchio, and Gangale! I haven't quite had time to compare all the surnames to all the kits I manage from my family. It will be interesting to see if there will be more. I can't help but wonder if my grandfather's original surname name is among those you have listed.
    Wow, that is very interesting!! Maybe you're eventually able to map a good portion of your genealogy.
    In the 1665 census apart from those of the 1543 census, these surnames are also present: Baffi, Comodo, Condosta, Ingravo, Italiano, L'Arte, Livani, Pillari (it could be just another form of the earlier Pillora), Mustacchia, Statte, Ungaro.

    The Baffi were a tribe with a similar migration pattern with the Basta. Also, a note on "Ungaro": it doesn't refer to a "Hungarian" as one might think at first glance, but someone who came from Ungra (Lungro in Italian), another Arbėresh village in Calabria. (The toponym refers to a microtoponym in the holdings these Albanian migrants were granted).

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  11. #1227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleschreiber View Post
    Wow, that is very interesting!! Maybe you're eventually able to map a good portion of your genealogy.
    In the 1665 census apart from those of the 1543 census, these surnames are also present: Baffi, Comodo, Condosta, Ingravo, Italiano, L'Arte, Livani, Pillari (it could be just another form of the earlier Pillora), Mustacchia, Statte, Ungaro.

    The Baffi were a tribe with a similar migration pattern with the Basta. Also, a note on "Ungaro": it doesn't refer to a "Hungarian" as one might think at first glance, but someone who came from Ungra (Lungro in Italian), another Arbėresh village in Calabria. (The toponym refers to a microtoponym in the holdings these Albanian migrants were granted).
    Thank you again for this! Hopefully I will be able to map this out one day. Looking quickly at this list, I know for sure we get matches to Baffi too.
    Maternal Grandfather's Y Line: J-ZS1711
    Maternal Grandfather's mtDNA: K2b1
    Paternal Grandmother’s mtDNA: U5a1

  12. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Tįltos View Post
    Thank you guys, very interesting with the Peloponnese. My family is from San Nicola dell'Alto. Years ago one of my cousins had been corresponding with family there. The family member that could translate English indicated that our family had been in the village for a very long time. The original surname was not remembered of my mother's direct paternal line there.

    He had sent a picture of my great great grandfather. In the photo he is in a military uniform, and looks to have been Bersaglieri. His hat had long black feathers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersaglieri
    He was born in 1858, just to give some context as to how far back I got in this line.
    He married Carmina Basta. She is from the same village. My understanding is this is one of the original villages given to soldiers under the command of Demetrio Reres that had helped the King of Naples with an uprising.

    Unfortunately when I tried to email the family there, the email no longer works. I have connected with the village's page on Facebook, but I have not been able to get any further in understanding my family's roots. Looking at the DNA, my mother's direct Y line ended up not being a typical Albanian one. My cousin turned out to be J-ZS1711. I have to eventually get a Big Y for him. This result is from the FTDNA SNP Pack for J1.

    Besides our autosomal matches seeming to be from all around, I have to admit I found it a little annoying that they couldn't at least give my mom at 23andme any recent ancestor locations to Albania. We do get some 4 ancestor matches to Gjirokastėr County, Albania. Specifically to Pėrmet, Tepelenė, and Sopik. There is another match that lists all four ancestors to Gurakuq, Rrethi i Elbasanit, Qarku i Elbasanit, Albania.

    Looking at her admixture on 23andme she is 21.5% Greek and Balkan, 15.3% Italian, and 6.3% West Asian & North African that could be attributed to this line. She has two first cousins also tested there that are half Arbėreshė like her. My daughter, and myself have also tested there. We all have this combination of Greek/Balkan/Italian/WANA.

    So for my mom's recent ancestor locations she gets in this order-Pelpoponnese, Central Greece, Western Greece, Decentralized Administrative of Attica, Epirus, Crete Region, Thessalia, Western Macedonia, Northern Aegean. All of us get the Peloponnese as our top match!

    For Italy she gets in this order Calabria, Sicily, Campania, Apulia, Basilicata, Abruzzo, Lazio.

    No one gets recent ancestor locations for the WANA but my mom and I both get Levantine that stays in all modes, the other cousins get Anatolian.

    So not sure how much of this can tell me anything more. I really need to get back at least two more generations paper trail wise from my great great grandparents. So if you guys have any ideas I am all ears!
    Most waves of Arbereshe came from Albania and Epirus and two from Peloponnese.

  13. #1229
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    It turns out that the noble Dukagjini family of Medieval North Albania most probably belonged to haplogroup J2b-PH1751 http://www.gjenetika.com/testohet-nj...jes-dukagjini/. This result is based on the fact that a sample of Albanian origin from Aleppo, Syria, who directly descends from Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha has tested as such. Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha was an Ottoman statesman of Albanian origin descending from the noble Dukagjini family, he even served as the Grand Vizier between 1512 and 1515 and is believed to have died in Amasya, Turkey.

    J2b-PH1751 is a typical Albanian cluster, confirming that the Dukagjini were of Albanian origin and that the tales of Norman origin were in fact made up.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 06-06-2020 at 12:58 AM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    It turns out that the noble Dukagjini family of Medieval North Albania most probably belonged to haplogroup J2b-PH1751 http://www.gjenetika.com/testohet-nj...jes-dukagjini/. This result is based on the fact that a sample of Albanian origin from Aleppo, Syria, who directly descends from Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha has tested as such. Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha was an Ottoman statesman of Albanian origin descending from the noble Dukagjini family, he even served as the Grand Vizier between 1512 and 1515 and is believed to have died in Amasya, Turkey.

    J2b-PH1751 is a typical Albanian cluster, confirming that the Dukagjini were of Albanian origin and that the tales of Norman origin were in fact made up.
    Are we sure this guy from Aleppo really descended from Ahmed Pasha? If this is in fact confirmed, than this is a breakthrough, and very cool news.

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