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Thread: Albanian DNA Project

  1. #1231
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjenetiks View Post
    Are we sure this guy from Aleppo really descended from Ahmed Pasha? If this is in fact confirmed, than this is a breakthrough, and very cool news.
    From what I have gathered, yes, he is a confirmed direct descendant of Ahmed Pasha and still even bears the last name Dukaginzāde.

    Would be great if one of the direct descendants of Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg could also test. From what I have gathered, there are a number of Arbėreshė with the last name Castriota, though many of them are actually unrelated to the actual Kastrioti family. The family that is confirmed through documentation to be directly descended from Skanderbeg is the Castriota Scanderbeg, who from what I have gathered were spread throughout southern Italy in towns such as Lecce and Naples.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 06-06-2020 at 12:55 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  3. #1232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    It turns out that the noble Dukagjini family of Medieval North Albania most probably belonged to haplogroup J2b-PH1751 http://www.gjenetika.com/testohet-nj...jes-dukagjini/. This result is based on the fact that a sample of Albanian origin from Aleppo, Syria, who directly descends from Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha has tested as such. Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha was an Ottoman statesman of Albanian origin descending from the noble Dukagjini family, he even served as the Grand Vizier between 1512 and 1515 and is believed to have died in Amasya, Turkey.

    J2b-PH1751 is a typical Albanian cluster, confirming that the Dukagjini were of Albanian origin and that the tales of Norman origin were in fact made up.
    Great work, Kelmendas! The tales of the Norman origin are indeed made up and we know exactly who wrote them. Gjon Muzaka who was married to Maria Dukagjini and wanted to give to his heirs more claims via a great origin story about his wife's family. The full story which Muzaka wrote in 1510 is that the Dukagjini came from Troy, went to France and then with Crusades went to the Holy Land after which two brothers on their trip back to France, settled in southern Europe. The first was the progenitor the House d'Este, dukes of Ferrara and the second was Duke Gjin, progenitor of the Dukagjini.

    Muzaka wrote the story specifically - as it becomes clear when one reads the full account - because he wanted to secure a title of a minor barony in the Duchy of Ferrara, which led him to try to legitimize his claim with such stories. His account is not unusual, as there are dozens of such stories in medieval Europe.
    Last edited by Maleschreiber; 06-06-2020 at 08:36 PM.

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  5. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleschreiber View Post
    Great work, Kelmendas! The tales of the Norman origin are indeed made up and we know exactly who wrote them. Gjon Muzaka who was married to Maria Dukagjini and wanted to give to his heirs more claims via a great origin story about his wife's family. The full story which Muzaka wrote in 1510 is that the Dukagjini came from Troy, went to France and then with Crusades went to the Holy Land after which two brothers on their trip back to France, settled in southern Europe. The first was the progenitor the House d'Este, dukes of Ferrara and the second was Duke Gjin, progenitor of the Dukagjini.

    Muzaka wrote the story specifically - as it becomes clear when one reads the full account - because he wanted to secure a title of a minor barony in the Duchy of Ferrara, which led him to try to legitimize his claim with such stories. His account is not unusual, as there are dozens of such story in medieval Europe.
    Credit goes out to the admins of the Albanian Y-DNA project who reach out to these people for testing.

    I also remember reading that the stories of origin or ancestral ties to the west were also made in order to compete with the Topia family who had ties to the House of Anjou through the marriage of Andrea Topia and one of Robert of Naples' illegitimate daughters. Though Muzaka further glorifying the story in order to increase the prestige of his children also makes sense.

    I personally was expecting the Dukagjini to be R-Z2705 since this group has shown up in the village of Perlat, where one of the oldest branches of the Dukagjini resided.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  7. #1234
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    Considering the region they ruled, J-PH1751, R-Z2705, or E-PH2180, would've been my top picks for the Dukagjini family. So this result does make sense.

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  9. #1235
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    I support the theory that Tosks had lower J2b than Ghegs even before they starting getting more input on their Y-DNA line (i.e Slavic I2a and R1a).
    Do you guys support my theory?

  10. #1236
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    In his book Kosovo: A Short history Noel seems to argue Albanians in Kosova also grew largely from a native population. I have seen others argue this too. Also Milan Sufflay's work I think mentions this or an old Illyro-Albanian population in Kosova. Some of it was written in Serbo-Croat such as his book ''History of the Northern Albanians'' ... Can somebody that knows Serbo-Croat read the book or get it ?


  11. #1237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless View Post
    In his book Kosovo: A Short history Noel seems to argue Albanians in Kosova also grew largely from a native population. I have seen others argue this too. Also Milan Sufflay's work I think mentions this or an old Illyro-Albanian population in Kosova. Some of it was written in Serbo-Croat such as his book ''History of the Northern Albanians'' ... Can somebody that knows Serbo-Croat read the book or get it ?

    In his essay: The north-eastern regions of the Sandjak of Dukagjin - Hass and its population during the second half of the 16th century, late Albanian historian and scholar Selami Pulaha states that Šufflay and Jireček believed that the region between the Erenik and White Drin (Drini i Bardhė) rivers had continuously been inhabited by a local Albanian population since the Middle Ages. Pulaha himself confirms this belief through the use of Ottoman records from the 15th and 16th centuries that confirm a continuous use of Albanian anthroponyms in the region, there's also the older Serbian records from the 14th century that mention Albanian katuns (shepherd settlements) in the area.

    Interestingly, the prevalence of Albanian names in the northeastern areas of the Sanjak of Dukagjin (Rudina, Domeshtiē and Pashtrik) increases during the 16th century, to the point that the vast majority of the population of this region had typical Albanian names. This cannot be attributed to a mass migration of Albanians into the region, since there are no records for such an event in this time period. Pulaha attributed it to the fact that Ottoman administration and political domination diminished Serb political and religious authority and influence in the region, as a result there was no longer an obligation for local Albanian-speakers to adopt the Orthodox faith and such.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  13. #1238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    From what I have gathered, yes, he is a confirmed direct descendant of Ahmed Pasha and still even bears the last name Dukaginzāde.

    Would be great if one of the direct descendants of Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg could also test. From what I have gathered, there are a number of Arbėreshė with the last name Castriota, though many of them are actually unrelated to the actual Kastrioti family. The family that is confirmed through documentation to be directly descended from Skanderbeg is the Castriota Scanderbeg, who from what I have gathered were spread throughout southern Italy in towns such as Lecce and Naples.
    Very cool about Dukagjini.

    And if I'm not mistaken I was under the impression that there was no living distant relative of Skanderbeg alive today? Though, if some descendants of Skanderbeg actually do live in Arbereshe inhabited areas of Italy, it would be super cool to test them.
    Last edited by gjenetiks; 06-07-2020 at 08:43 PM.

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  15. #1239
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  16. #1240
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjenetiks View Post
    Very cool about Dukagjini.

    And if I'm not mistaken I was under the impression that there was no living distant relative of Skanderbeg alive today? Though, if some descendants of Skanderbeg actually do live in Arbereshe inhabited areas of Italy, it would be super cool to test them.
    There actually are still a couple living descendants of the Castriota Scanderbeg family, a well known member of this family is journalist Loris Castriota Scanderbeg.

    I think that, when testing living descendants of noble houses or lineages, we should take into account potential non-paternity events, especially in the cases where these families have fled from their homeland and have been forced to intermingle with the local aristocracy. But in the case of the Syrian of Albanian origin that descends from the Dukagjini, the fact that he has a typical Albanian paternal lineage in my opinion confirms his genealogy.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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