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Thread: Albanian DNA Project

  1. #2071
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The words shkla and shklerisht are still used by the Arvanites to denote those that do not speak the Arvanitika variety of Albanian, and in modern times is particularly used for Greeks or the Greek language since of course they are in closest contact with Greek-speakers.
    So even modern Arvanites, i.e the people who speak Arvanitika use that word and make the distinction. I mean it's pretty much settled at that, not sure why this is even an argument anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    Thanks for these theories based on the terminology of the late middle age Albanian language. Just given that this theory would correctly conclude that these words are taken from the latin, of course we don’t know when and under what circumstances the pre-Albanians or albanophone people adopted these terms. Did it happen in late antiquity or much later? Do we have any evidence on what Christianity looked like in today’s albania when it became the main religion? We all know that until 1054 there was only one Catholic Church, so it is also possible that for a short period in the beginning (late antiquity) latin terms were adopted (when the latin language was still wider spread in the eastern empire) but the church language in the mass was mainly Greek or rapidly became Greek. Or are you of the opinion that the first Christian Albanians had their mass held in Latin and that this changed only after 1204?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    Sounds quite speculative and unfortunately doesn’t answer my questions, as expected. But thanks for the trouble
    Christian terminology in Albanian derives from Proto-Albanian terms which evolved from Latin loanwords. This process couldn't have happened any later than (Late) Proto-Albanian (~200-400 CE). All Latin terms which were acquired in Albanian from Latin in this era have common characteristics (see Orel 1998; Demiraj 1997). They vary according to dialect, which means that they were incorporated into Albanian before the Slavic migrations. All Albanian religious terms have these characteristics, while Greek-derived Christian terminology which is much, much later (Middle Ages) maintains its phonology with little development within Albanian.

    Albanians were Christianized in a Latin-speaking environment. Indeed, all Illyriciani priests were following Roman rites and used Latin in liturgy.

    Klein, Jared; Brian, Joseph; Fritz, Matthias (2018). Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics

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    I wonder, do these early Latin terms also apply to Greek Orthodox Albanians? What about Arvanites from Thesprotia, where Chatzianastasoglou hails from?
    "93.8% Greek_Peloponnese (N=27) + 6.2% Yamnaya_RUS_Samara" "0.0196"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcelow View Post
    I wonder, do these early Latin terms also apply to Greek Orthodox Albanians? What about Arvanites from Thesprotia, where Chatzianastasoglou hails from?
    He hails from Minor Asia paternally, not from this community if I recall correctly some of his comments. I mention it because hybridization of identities is very interesting as a phenomenon. The opposite exists as well: there are individuals who are paternally Arvanite and maternally from Albania and have a very typical Albanian diaspora identity. It really goes on to show that identity in the 21st century is truly a very personal and unique to every individual issue which can't be summed up in broad generalizations. Furthermore, it doesn't have to be related to politics. It can just involve appreciation for one's culture and the ways which it allows people from different countries to communicate with each other.

    As far as I have read, these people have never been recorded as calling themselves "Arvanites" (in the meaning of consciously translating their endonym from Albanian to Greek as "Arvanites")

    Yes, they're the same throughout all Albanian dialects. The Roman Latin context of Christianity among Albanians can be seen not just in the terms themselves, but in how they're used. You can see the age of incorporation for every term. Let me give you an example about how that can be seen very easily in the names of saints. All saints which were popular in a Latin-Catholic context are called in Albanian dialects from Greece and Italy as Shėn ( Albanian for "saint", derived from Latin sanctus) + name, but all saints which didn't exist in that context but became known to Albanians after migrations to Greece are known as Ajo (a straight-up loanword with no phonological development in Albanian, from Greek ayios, "saint) + name. Hence (in Arvanitika in Greece after T. Jochalas):

    Shėnkolli (Saint Nicholas)
    Shėnmėhilli (Saint Michael)
    Shėndėlli (Prophet Elijah)
    Shėnmėri (Saint/Mother Mary)
    Shėnandoni (Shndou in some northern dialects, Saint Anthony)

    but

    Ajonufri (Saint Onufrius)
    Ajososti (Saint Sostis)
    Ajothoma (Saint Thomas)
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 10-14-2021 at 01:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olive picker View Post
    That the Arvanites were just Albanian speaking Greeks.
    Well, they had no own state, no own church, just their language. Nations did not exist at that time. And they were Greek Orthodox. Judging from the past criteria on identity they were, if not fully Roman, very close to it. In ottoman times at the latest they became fully Roman then with the ottoman system.
    Last edited by Chatzianastasoglou; 10-14-2021 at 07:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcelow View Post
    I wonder, do these early Latin terms also apply to Greek Orthodox Albanians? What about Arvanites from Thesprotia, where Chatzianastasoglou hails from?
    I have no idea. Some are trying here to exclude me from
    my Arvanite heritage because of my paternal non-Arvanite ancestry, they, who are no Arvanites themselves whatsoever, but don’t know that my mother herself is just like almost every other Arvanite a patriotic Greek and Never spoke that language actively so I cannot ask her. So it’s nonsense to say this all has to do with the paternal origins as bruzmi ist trying to explain it. Only her maternal grandmother was not Arvanite, the rest is 100% and all felt Greek. The Albanians here have no idea how much mistrust the Arvanites of Epirus feel generally towards albania and Albanians who are trying to instrumentalize them. And what I’m saying is that this universal feeling of them of belonging to Greek culture is based on family tradition, no scholar can change that with his theories. There must be good reason why the Arvanites of Greece felt „Greek“ very early already, from their arrival to Greece probably. And I believe religion must be the key. Even if the protoarvanites were christianized in a Latin environment, that doesn’t mean that they were not part of the Greek Orthodox tradition for centuries when they arrived in Greece.
    Last edited by Chatzianastasoglou; 10-14-2021 at 07:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    Probably yes, which again implies that today’s southern Albania (Epirus) had only Greeks at this time.
    What is the time period in question here? From a linguistic perspective, the Ancient Greek toponym Aulón-a (Αυλών) seems to have developed naturally according to typical Albanian phonological developments into Tosk Albanian Vlorė and Geg Albanian Vlonė. The presence of Tosk rhotacism in the former within of itself suggests that the ancestors of the Albanians had already learned the name prior to the large-scale arrival of the Slavs between the mid-sixth century and seventh century CE.

    As for historical documentation, the earliest explicit reference to the Albanians being in extreme south of Albania or Epirus is from a Venetian document dating to 1210 CE whereby they are recorded as inhabiting the land opposite of Corfu.
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    Also from Kristo Frashėri's The Territories of the Albanians in the XVth Century regarding Albanian identity in an ethno-religious context via Byzantine writers and sources:

    From the XIII century on the first signs began to appear among the circles of the learned Byzantines of the Nicaean Empire of a new concept of nationality, not determined as before by political and religious allegiance, but by language and religion. As a result of this new concept, 'the Hellene', the Greek-speaking Byzantine Orthodox subject began to be distinguished from the 'Romaios' nationality. With the further development of this concept, the Orthodox Albanian began to be distinguished from the Orthodox Hellene as belonging to a different speaking community. On the other hand, however, Orthodox Albanian was still separated from the Catholic Albanian since he belonged to a different religious community. Thus the terrain was prepared for the emergence of a common name for all the Orthodox Albanians. This new concept was first expressed by the Byzantine writer of the XIV century, G. Pachymeres who, when speaking of the inhabitants of New Epirus, uses in one case Albanite, in another case the name Illyrian. Later on the name Epirotes came to be used as against the Albanites. In some cases, instead of the name Epirotes, which had an ancient historical sounding, the name Albanite was replaced with that of the Macedonian, which had also an ancient historical sounding in analogy with it the name Macedonia became the second name for Albania (Macedoniam sive Albaniam). In this way the inhabitants of the Albanian-speaking territory were called by foreigners Epirotes and Albanites, Epirotes et Albanenses or Epirotes and Macedonians, Epyrote et Macedones.

    However the two separate ethnic denominations for the Albanians of the two different religions did not assume a clear-cut form as was the case with the southern Slavs between the Catholic Croat and the Orthodox Serb. No doubt a special role in this respect has been played by the fact that there was no separate political-religious community in the regions inhabited by the Orthodox Albanians as against the political-religious community of the Arbanites. However, as M. Šufflay has rightly observed the main reason must be sought in the fact that 'in the Middle Ages there was hardly any trace of religious fanaticism among the Albanians', hence the inhabitants of the Albanian-speaking territory did not differ from the ethnic point of view from their countrymen of different religion. Thus the forerunners of the modern concept of nationality, the concept which disregards religious differences in the language communities, gave a single ethnic denomination to all Albanians. The first documents in this direction are provided by the Byzantine writers. However, the choice of a common name was not unanimously accepted initially. The archaic tendency of some scholars seems to have influenced the writer of the XIVth Century N. Gregoras, since he called the Albanian Illyrians. However, his contemporary, J. Kantakuzenos was not of the same opinion; he called them Albanites because, according to him, the Tribals (Serbs) were the descendants of the Illyrians. In the XV century they were called Albanites by Chalcocondylas, Dukas and Sfrantzes while Christoboulos called them Illyrians.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 10-14-2021 at 12:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    I have no idea. Some are trying here to exclude me from
    my Arvanite heritage because of my paternal non-Arvanite ancestry, they, who are no Arvanites themselves whatsoever, but don’t know that my mother herself is just like almost every other Arvanite a patriotic Greek and Never spoke that language actively so I cannot ask her. So it’s nonsense to say this all has to do with the paternal origins as bruzmi ist trying to explain it. Only her maternal grandmother was not Arvanite, the rest is 100% and all felt Greek. The Albanians here have no idea how much mistrust the Arvanites of Epirus feel generally towards albania and Albanians who are trying to instrumentalize them. And what I’m saying is that this universal feeling of them of belonging to Greek culture is based on family tradition, no scholar can change that with his theories. There must be good reason why the Arvanites of Greece felt „Greek“ very early already, from their arrival to Greece probably. And I believe religion must be the key. Even if the protoarvanites were christianized in a Latin environment, that doesn’t mean that they were not part of the Greek Orthodox tradition for centuries when they arrived in Greece.
    There are no "Proto-Arvanites". "Arvanites" just means "Albanians" in medieval Greek. Whenever Christian Albanians in Greece wrote about themselves in Greek, they translated Arbėreshė (which is how all Albanians called themselves before the mid 18th century) as "Alvanoi" (which is how Albanians are called even today in Standard Greek).

    You, personally, can have every cultural identity you want to have and you can believe that having X identity contradicts appreciating Y culture. It's all fine as a personal choice. You, however, can't generalize your personal identity as the identity of other people who not only are ... other people but also have a very different background than you. Nobody has to "claim" anything about anyone's cultural identity or to politicize it with comments about "patriotism".

    How what you are describing is actually a very modern construct and how religion played no actual role up to the late 19th century was shown when we discussed about the Suliots

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Anthony Hirst, Patrick Sammon eds. (2014), The Ionian Islands: Aspects of their History and Culture, Cambridge Scholars Publishing
    One more example:

    Panayotis Koupitoris was an Arvanite scholar from the island of Hydra. He wrote several books about the Albanian language of his region. One of them in Albanian is titled Studim mbi pėremrin e vetės sė tretė ndėr shqiptarė, sipas dialektit tė shqiptarėve nė Greqi, sidomos tė ydhriotėve (1879) Study on the pronoun of the third person among Albanians, according to the dialect of the Albanians in Greece, especially of the Hydriots. In Greek, the same book was published as:


    The author calls the Arvanites of southern Greece, "Albanians in Greece". It's obvious just from this piece that 19th century Arvanites knew very well that they were a distinct community among the other communities in the Kingdom of Greece. It also shows that there was absolutely no contradiction in anyone's thought in southern Greece that someone could both be a citizen of Greece and not an ethnic Greek.
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 10-14-2021 at 02:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    What is the time period in question here? From a linguistic perspective, the Ancient Greek toponym Aulón-a (Αυλών) seems to have developed naturally according to typical Albanian phonological developments into Tosk Albanian Vlorė and Geg Albanian Vlonė. The presence of Tosk rhotacism in the former within of itself suggests that the ancestors of the Albanians had already learned the name prior to the large-scale arrival of the Slavs between the mid-sixth century and seventh century CE.

    As for historical documentation, the earliest explicit reference to the Albanians being in extreme south of Albania or Epirus is from a Venetian document dating to 1210 CE whereby they are recorded as inhabiting the land opposite of Corfu.
    Yes yes I know that. If the Greek Orthodox tradition was adopted in the eastern Illyricum in the eighth century as the posted article suggests, and if all albanophones lived within the Illyricum during their, as you are claiming, (Roman) christianization, then the consequence can only be that today’s southern Albania had no albanophones when they were christianized since the geographical region of Epirus did not belong to the Illyricum and has always stood under the Greek church jurisdiction. Did it?

    Otherwise I’m wondering how a two way christianization of grecophones and albanophones should have taken place in the same region. And still I’m wondering if the Latin christianization means that until the 8th century the albanophones held their mass in Latin or in Greek already. Greek is more probable because all of the administration have been Greek, much earlier than in the 8th century. Church jurisdiction might not necessarily influence the linguistic church practice, since at this time there was anyway just one United church and where should the latinophone priests have come from

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