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Thread: Albanian DNA Project

  1. #1931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Kumani-Kruja is a later material culture, but geographically the Albani area and Komani-Kruja are roughly the same. Personally, I think that the Komani-Kruja remains are "overrated" archaeologically (they just happened to be among the first such finds) but that's a discussion for another day.

    Dialectal rhotacisation refers in this case to the intervocalic /r/ in Arbėr-Arbėn. Arb- and alb- represent two different root forms.

    Demiraj, Origin of Albanians linguistically investigated:


    In antiquity, both forms were used and Arbėreshė has still maintained a rare form albresh. The predominant form, however, was arb- and this is the form which was acquired both in Slavic and medieval Greek.



    In fact, most relevant toponyms which were encountered by medieval Slavs had the arb- variant.


    Some, however, did have the alb- variant. And in some cases elsewhere in the Balkans, both variants of Arb-/Alb- toponyms were preserved in different forms. The ancestors of Croats encountered both Alb(i)ona>Labin and the nearby village of Rabac<Arbac (in Italian, however, Albona). For Croats to have encountered Arbac>Rabac, the locals must have at the very least also used the arb- variant.

    My personal opinion (which obviously is an "educated guess" and a linguistic assumption at this point) is that while both forms were used, in Late Latin, Alb- seems to have been the preferred version in official use because it alluded to the Latin Alban Hills and other symbols of Roman-ness.
    Thank you for your very interesting response! Again as a non-speaker of Albanian, could the Labin/Rabac discrepancy stem from Albanians migrating in different time periods, where in the first one Alb- was preferred, and a later migration used Arb- instead?

    I'd like to hear your views about Kruja-Komani at some point.

    I think it is clear that Albanian paternal lines reach their greatest diversity in the north of the country, as well as Kosovo, and parts of Montenegro and southern Serbia. So the origins of Albanians from a Dardanian-Daco-Moesian or Illyrian people in North-Central Albania makes a lot of sense. It is incredible how some highland populations have essentially no Slavic Y-dna (based on Rrenjet). If we all agree that there was a southward migration of Albanians to the rest of what is now Albania at some point, what type of people were inhabiting that part of Albania/Epirus at that time. Slavs, Greeks, Grecoslavs? Or was the area completely deserted?

    OK, there are more Slavic paternal lines in southern Albania, but this could be from later Bulgarian settlements, as some of the posters here have already indicated. But J2a is higher there and R-Y32042 is quite diverse too - do they merely represent founder effects, or something else? We should not forget that Epirus was fairly cosmopolitan prior to the slavic migrations, and boasted both Greek-speaking Romans and likely non-romanised/hellenised Illyrian speakers in rural areas. Did this population disappear? It could have, in the same way that Illyrians were completely absorbed by Slavs in Croatia and the northern Adriatic.
    Last edited by XXD; 07-22-2021 at 01:35 AM.
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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  3. #1932
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    Completely irrelevant, but my cousin has an Albanian match with the surname Kastrati - I assume with origin from that tribal area. His haplogroup is listed as R1b-CTS9219 - I mention it in case any one is interested.
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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  5. #1933
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    Completely irrelevant, but my cousin has an Albanian match with the surname Kastrati - I assume with origin from that tribal area. His haplogroup is listed as R1b-CTS9219 - I mention it in case any one is interested.
    His match is possibly from the Kastrati of the ethno-geographic territory of Hasi which extends from north-eastern Albania into south-western Kosovo. Individuals from this brotherhood have tested and are R1b-Y32147>Y133365+. Interestingly, the Roman Catholic prelate Pietro Luccari wrote in 1605 that the Kastrioti family traced their origin back to this area, connecting them to the Kastrati specifically. Of course the geographic origin of the Kastrioti is still heavily contested.

    These Kastrati I believe are unrelated to the Kastrati fis or tribe of Malėsia e Madhe which so far has primarily tested as J2b-PH1751>FT134628. What both of the Kastrati and the Kastrioti have in common is the same ultimate etymological origin from Latin castrum (fortress or military encampement). Some have argued that Kastrioti took on a different form due to the influence that Byzantine culture had on the Albanian nobility, it may have been inherited from the Byzantine Greek intermediary κάστρον (kįstron).
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  7. #1934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    His match is possibly from the Kastrati of the ethno-geographic territory of Hasi which extends from north-eastern Albania into south-western Kosovo. Individuals from this brotherhood have tested and are R1b-Y32147>Y133365+. Interestingly, the Roman Catholic prelate Pietro Luccari wrote in 1605 that the Kastrioti family traced their origin back to this area, connecting them to the Kastrati specifically. Of course the geographic origin of the Kastrioti is still heavily contested.

    These Kastrati I believe are unrelated to the Kastrati fis or tribe of Malėsia e Madhe which so far has primarily tested as J2b-PH1751>FT134628. What both of the Kastrati and the Kastrioti have in common is the same ultimate etymological origin from Latin castrum (fortress or military encampement). Some have argued that Kastrioti took on a different form due to the influence that Byzantine culture had on the Albanian nobility, it may have been inherited from the Byzantine Greek intermediary κάστρον (kįstron).
    Very interesting! So who knows, Kastrioti might have been R1b-Z2103! Although I expect nobility to have gained fortresses (kastra) independently. I remember you said there were some likely Kastrioti descendants among the Arbereshe of Italy?
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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  9. #1935
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    I remember you said there were some likely Kastrioti descendants among the Arbereshe of Italy?
    Today there are two patrilineal branches of the Kastrioti, both of whom refer to themselves as the Castriota Scanderbeg: one branch established itself in the city of Lecce in the region of Apulia in south-eastern Italy eventually forming two sub-branches, while the other branch based itself in Naples and today only has one surviving sub-branch. Both branches are the direct descendants of Ferrante Castriota (name is also given as Ferdinando) who was the son of Gjon II Kastrioti and his wife Jerina Branković and inherited the title of Duke of Galatina and Count of Spoleto from his father. The branch of Lecce is descended from Ferrante's son Pardo Castriota (1538-1574) while the branch of Naples is descended from Achille Castriota (1540-1591).
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  11. #1936
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Today there are two patrilineal branches of the Kastrioti, both of whom refer to themselves as the Castriota Scanderbeg: one branch established itself in the city of Lecce in the region of Apulia in south-eastern Italy eventually forming two sub-branches, while the other branch based itself in Naples and today only has one surviving sub-branch. Both branches are the direct descendants of Ferrante Castriota (name is also given as Ferdinando) who was the son of Gjon II Kastrioti and his wife Jerina Branković and inherited the title of Duke of Galatina and Count of Spoleto from his father. The branch of Lecce is descended from Ferrante's son Pardo Castriota (1538-1574) while the branch of Naples is descended from Achille Castriota (1540-1591).
    Wow! We need to get them sequenced!!! Has communication been established with any of the living members?
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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  13. #1937
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    Wow! We need to get them sequenced!!! Has communication been established with any of the living members?
    From what I remember contact has been attempted however they have either turned the offer down or did not even reply which is very unfortunate.
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    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  15. #1938
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjenetiks View Post
    How prevalent were Slavic names among Albanians outside of Albania? Could it be that some Albanians were originally Serbs who got Albanized? What would be the Y-DNA of such people typically look like?

    We know that there were definitely places of Albanian-Slavic contact, and I can certainly attest to this from where I am from. But speaking of paternal ancestry, is it more likely that Albanians who have a lot of Slavic names in their genealogy were originally Slavs who through contact with neighboring Albanians, assimilated into an Albanian identity?
    There may be a tiny correlation between the two, but in the end, Albanians with Slavic names living outside of Albania are most indicative of a state church-like strategy in which Albanians have been baptized and/or given Slavic names as a result of the policy in question. This is the suggestion made by Noel Malcolm and Selami Pulaha. Regarding Y-DNA, I don't believe there were many instances of Slavs becoming "Albanized" because there wasn't a sufficient state or policy in place for this to occur in significant numbers; the only thing that comes to mind is possible intermarriage between the two groups. According to the information provided by Poreklo RS, much of Southern Montenegro has a high concentration of Paleo-Balkanic haplogroups, which may start to clarify some of the uncertainties.
    “To Maltsia e madhe I first turned my steps–not to see the mountains, but to see life, history, the world, and the great unknown, as it looks to the mountain man.”
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  17. #1939
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    Interesting excerpts and segments from Skėnder Anamali's From the Illyrians to the Arbėrs (Early Albanians):

    A strong argument in favour of the thesis of the Romanization of the Illyrians and other peoples is the presence of Latin inscriptions, the frequency and distribution of which is claimed to be proof of the existence of a Latinophone population. However, the number of Latin inscriptions found in the present territory of Albania is very small in comparison with other Roman provinces. The 200 inscriptions found in a territory situated close to Rome and in a geographical position which facilitated the spread of Latin cannot be taken as proof of the Romanization of this territory. The distribution of inscriptions in the northern part of the country, in the two main towns of the north - Scodra and Lissus - is very limited. A few occasional inscriptions have been found in the district of Shkodra, whereas in the neighbourhood of Lissus we have found none of them. They are found along the main roads linking Lissus and Scodra with the northern and northeastern regions of Illyria, especially the localities of Margegaj (Tropoja) and Kolesjan (Kukės) in northeastern Albania. The second zone of Latin inscriptions, as the more extensive, and one in which more than half of the Latin inscriptions in Albania have been found, is the colony of Dyrrachium. Most of the inscriptions found there belong to the city. The localities of the zone of Kavaja, Tirana and Elbasan (according to an inscription the latter appear to have been a vicus, i.e. village, of Dyrrachium in the beginnings of its existence) are included in the periphery of Dyrrachium. The third zone in which Latin inscriptions have been found is the zone with Byllis as its centre. They are found in small numbers in peasant settlements in the Vjosa valley. The colony of Bouthroton is the only centre of the southeastern province in which Latin inscriptions have been discovered.

    The milestones found in some localities along the important roads of that time, or the inscriptions carved in the western hillside of the harbour in Karaburun (south of Vlora), cannot be considered as evidence of the presence of a Latinophone population there. Likewise, a Latin votive inscription found in Apollonia, or a bilingual inscription in Amantia is not evidence enough to prove such a phenomenon especially when the other inscriptions of the Roman time in both cities appear in Greek, even when they have an official character. These micro-zones, in which Latin inscriptions have been found, with the exclusion of Dyrrachium and its surrounding region, provide no argument to prove 'the widespread use of written and spoken Latin' among the Southern Illyrians or the presence of a large Latin-speaking population in the territory of present-day Albania. However we must not overlook the fact that the Latin inscriptions found in Albania in the four zones of their distribution, apart from other things, carry tens of Illyrian names such as Gent, Epikad, Platura, Plator, Klevata, Tata, Anai, Anyla, Anea, Savila, Dastid, Pladomen, Sura, Pyram, etc., which are ancient in this territory of Illyria and constitute an important link in the chain of proofs of the survival of the Illyrian population during Roman occupation. An example which proves our point is provided by a Latin inscription found in a grave in the vicinity of Scampini, in which apart from the local name Lupus (Ujk) appears the ethnic name Parthin and birthplace Latio, which we believe is the present-day Laē (Northern Albania).
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  19. #1940
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    I was doing some reading surrounding the theories which suggest that the names of certain major cities in Albania (e.g., Durrės and Vlora) only entered the Albanian language via mediation of a South Slavic language such as Serbian or Bulgarian, and it seems that for the most part they were put forth by the German linguist Gustav Weigand who was writing in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries and specialised in the study of the Balkan Romance languages.

    Weigand argued that the Albanian toponym Durrės did not obtain its form directly from the older Latin name Dyrrhachium, but rather from the South Slavic or Serbian intermediary of *Dъrāč or Drač. This was then also argued by German historian Gottfried Schramm who is now known for his theory connecting the Albanians to the Thracian Bessi. Weigand also similarly argued that Albanian Vlorė was not directly derived or inherited from the older Greek Aulón (Αυλών) but rather from a South Slavic intermediary.

    A number of linguists however have challenged and practically refuted the assertations of Weigand and Schramm, these include Albanian scholars such as Eqrem Ēabej and Bardhyl Demiraj to foreign ones such as Joachim Matzinger. For starters, the Albanian toponym Durrės and also even Italian Durazzo are both derived from the same palatalised variant of Dyrrachium: Dyrratio which is attested in the early centuries CE though linguists such as Matzinger also give very similar forms such as Dśrratso. As for Vlora, Max Vasmer has stated that if mediated from a Slavic intermediary, the toponym should have obtained the form *Valin. There is also the fact that the Albanian toponym has developed undergoing rhotacism which is a pre-Slavic phenomenon in Albanian. The form in the Tosk Albanian dialects is Vlorė while in the Geg dialects it is given as Vlonė.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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