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Thread: Albanian DNA Project

  1. #2111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    My best guess is that its a widespread, very old lineage, it seems to be rather rare, but present in Albanians, like the whole of E-BY5500? Impossible to tell when exactly it spread in the Ukraine and Eastern Balkans, but the Ukrainian and Bulgarian lineage split rather before the common era. For this subclade FTDNA is really way more important than YFull.
    If you look at sister branches under E-L241, you'll notice that they were in southern Europe earlier than Slavic migrations and at some point some appear in Ukraine.

    Under E-Z38770*

    1 early MA sample from Rome, Italy
    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR107
    Distance: 2.3850% / 0.02384978 | R4P
    46.4 French_Corsica
    36.4 Greek_Laconia
    10.4 Samaritan
    6.8 Georgian_Imer

    1 Ukrainian from Lviv

    In my opinion, it's evident that that the migration route was from the south to the north, at least for these lineages.


    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yes, its an old survivor. I think its not Daco-Thracian though, but rather Yamnaya and related to the preceding people, like those from Mokrin which were replaced by Daco-Thracians. But Bulgaria has a lot of E-V13 old clades as well, that's for sure. Its even possible that Psenichevo influenced Basarabi too, so kind of a secondary spread. First E-V13 came down, then came some lineages to the more Western regions from Bulgaria, possibly, and spread from there.
    These may actually be the Dacians and Thracians. Because their language remained largely unchanged, there's no reason to believe that some sudden E-V13 influx replaced them. If another population replaced BA Thracians, then the Thracian language wouldn't be what it was based on what we know about it.

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  3. #2112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yes, its an old survivor. I think its not Daco-Thracian though, but rather Yamnaya and related to the preceding people, like those from Mokrin which were replaced by Daco-Thracians. But Bulgaria has a lot of E-V13 old clades as well, that's for sure. Its even possible that Psenichevo influenced Basarabi too, so kind of a secondary spread. First E-V13 came down in the Late Bronze Age to Bulgaria, then came some lineages to the more Western regions from Bulgaria, possibly, and spread from there in the Iron Age further West and North.
    The branch split is arround 1900bc so not old enough to be before Daco-Thracians. I have been thinking about this a lot and my theory is that the Multi-cordoned ware culture people that moved to the Balkans are Pre-Armenians and they belonged to Z2103 branches of the Armenian variety and then you get Psenicevo-Babadag which brings some V13 branches and R-Y255725 to Bulgaria and pushes the Pre-Armenians east. In my theory the Albanian heavy R-Y10789 is from the Daco-Moesians together with the V13 branches. What is left for Proto-Illyrians is R-BY251 and J2b2. We have to wait a bit more for better sampling of the region between the Carpathians and the Aegean but I would expect there to be a ton of Z2103 especially after the Z93 Srubnaya guys pushed them out of the Steppe.
    Distance: 6.5138% / 0.06513835
    56.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    13.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    7.6 LUX_Loschbour
    3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 MNG_Late_Med

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  5. #2113
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    Albanian
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    T1a1l
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    E-CTS1273*

    Albania Kosovo
    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    In my theory the Albanian heavy R-Y10789 is from the Daco-Moesians together with the V13 branches.
    The vast majority of Albanian R1b-Y10789 is under Z2705 and the current distribution and data surrounding this lineage does not, in my opinion, favour an expansion from territories further to the east in the Balkans such as Moesia. The greatest diversity and also basal diversity seems to be in Albanians and other neighbouring peoples such as Montenegrins, Sandžak Bosniaks and even Serbs. The clusters present in Bulgarians for the most part have parallel clusters in the western Balkans, likely arriving during the medieval, and for the most part come under more recent or general groups.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 10-18-2021 at 12:43 AM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  7. #2114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The vast majority of Albanian R1b-Y10789 is under Z2705 and the current distribution and data surrounding this sample does not, in my opinion, favour an expansion from territories further to the east in the Balkans such as Moesia. The greatest diversity and also basal diversity seems to be in Albanians and other neighbouring peoples such as Montenegrins, Sandžak Bosniaks and even Serbs. The clusters present in Bulgarians for the most part have parallel clusters in the western Balkans, likely arriving during the medieval, and for the most part come under more recent or general groups.
    What I mean when I say Daco-Moesians is the people that lived essentially on the teritory of todays Serbia and some parts of Romania like Banat and Oltenia. I am not saying the branch came from the east but from the north with the Proto-Daco-Moesians who were absorbed by the Illyrians hence you get the Dardanians the predecesors of the Proto-Albanians who are of mixed Illyrian and Daco-Moesian origins in which case Albanian is at its base Illyrian + Daco-Moesian influence.
    Distance: 6.5138% / 0.06513835
    56.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    13.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    7.6 LUX_Loschbour
    3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 MNG_Late_Med

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  9. #2115
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    Daco-Thracian is clearly associated with Channelled Ware and spread to Bulgaria later in the transitional phase, from two directions probably. One associated with Belegis II-Gava and the other down the Eastern side of the Carpathians. They formed a large Fluted/Channelled Ware horizon down to the Aegean, where the associated Knobbed Ware reached Asia minor.
    This is what spread both E-V13 and Channelled Ware.

    E-BY5500 is a good example for the diversity and spread all lineages dated before the transitional phase have.

    E-V13 with Gava was closer associated with R1a and R1b from the Epi-Corded, Unetice and Tumulus culture horizons respectively.

    Mokrin is a quite different local Balkan context, in pre-Channelled Ware Bulgaria the same spectrum appears.
    Mokrin is not Daco-Thracians.

    What's possible is that some Mokrin related lineages existed beside E-V13 in the Carpathian sphere already, though I don't think so. Its likely some were picked up on the move by Channelled Ware people and later Cimmerians contributed in the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon.

    But Daco-Thracian is very unlikely to date in Bulgaria before the LBA and spread primarily with E-V13 and Channelled Ware.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-18-2021 at 12:53 AM.

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  11. #2116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Daco-Thracian is clearly associated with Channelled Ware and spread to Bulgaria later in the transitional phase, from two directions probably. One associated with Belegis II-Gava and the other down the Eastern side of the Carpathians. They formed a large Fluted/Channelled Ware horizon down to the Aegean, where the associated Knobbed Ware reached Asia minor.
    This is what spread both E-V13 and Channelled Ware.

    E-BY5500 is a good example for the diversity and spread all lineages dated before the transitional phase have.

    E-V13 with Gava was closer associated with R1a and R1b from the Epi-Corded, Unetice and Tumulus culture horizons respectively.

    Mokrin is a quite different local Balkan context, in pre-Channelled Ware Bulgaria the same spectrum appears.
    Mokrin is not Daco-Thracians.

    What's possible is that some Mokrin related lineages existed beide E-V13 in the Carpathian sphere already. Its likely some were picked up on the move by Channelled Ware people and later Cimmerians contributed in the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon.

    But Daco-Thracian is very unlikely to date in Bulgaria before the LBA.
    I am agreeing with on most things but i dont think i am explaining what i mean very well. Mokrin in my opinion is a dead end and is a preceding movement from the north from the same source that later the Daco-Thracians originate. What I am not agreeing with you on is that the Channelled Ware people that came were only V13 in my opinion they were V13 heavy but with R-Y18959 in the case of Daco-Moesians following the western side of the Carpathians the branch they brought was R-Y10789 which is one of the main Albanian branches today which they got from the Dardanians who were of mixed Daco-Moesian and Illyrian origins. Bulgaria gets R-Y5586 from the Channelled Ware movement on the other side of the Carpathians.
    Distance: 6.5138% / 0.06513835
    56.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    13.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    7.6 LUX_Loschbour
    3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 MNG_Late_Med

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  13. #2117
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    I am agreeing with on most things but i dont think i am explaining what i mean very well. Mokrin in my opinion is a dead end and is a preceding movement from the north from the same source that later the Daco-Thracians originate. What I am not agreeing with you on is that the Channelled Ware people that came were only V13 in my opinion they were V13 heavy but with R-Y18959 in the case of Daco-Moesians following the western side of the Carpathians the branch they brought was R-Y10789 which is one of the main Albanian branches today which they got from the Dardanians who were of mixed Daco-Moesian and Illyrian origins. Bulgaria gets R-Y5586 from the Channelled Ware movement on the other side of the Carpathians.
    Ok, that might be possible. I'm not saying Channelled Ware was all E-V13, but just totally dominated by it. How much percent in which branch is open to debatte.
    Safe is just that it soon reached something between 50-100 percent in Psenichevo-Basarabi, because otherwise it wouldn't add up with everything else we know already.

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  15. #2118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Ok, that might be possible. I'm not saying Channelled Ware was all E-V13, but just totally dominated by it. How much percent in which branch is open to debatte.
    Safe is just that it soon reached something between 50-100 percent in Psenichevo-Basarabi, because otherwise it wouldn't add up with everything else we know already.
    It was definately very heavily V13 actually unusually heavy so there must have been some insane founder effect and thats why its been so hard to find V13 before it much like its very hard to find CTS10228 before the Slavic expansion and then we get it everywhere. Maybe before the V13 founder effect the region arround the Carpathians was dominated by Z2103 and maybe there was some Catacomb movement from the east at some point that replaced the leftovers of the preceding Corded Ware. At this point I am of course in speculation mode until we get more data that confirms or shatters our theories.
    Distance: 6.5138% / 0.06513835
    56.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    13.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    7.6 LUX_Loschbour
    3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 MNG_Late_Med

  16. #2119
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    It was definately very heavily V13 actually unusually heavy so there must have been some insane founder effect and thats why its been so hard to find V13 before it much like its very hard to find CTS10228 before the Slavic expansion and then we get it everywhere. Maybe before the V13 founder effect the region arround the Carpathians was dominated by Z2103 and maybe there was some Catacomb movement from the east at some point that replaced the leftovers of the preceding Corded Ware. At this point I am of course in speculation mode until we get more data that confirms or shatters our theories.
    E-V13 seems to have started to recover soon after the steppe people conquered, within the Epi-Corded context.
    I expect them to be in place since then. There was a local variant of Unetice and the Tumulus culture in the Carpathians and that's where to search first probably.

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  18. #2120
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    What I mean when I say Daco-Moesians is the people that lived essentially on the teritory of todays Serbia and some parts of Romania like Banat and Oltenia. I am not saying the branch came from the east but from the north with the Proto-Daco-Moesians who were absorbed by the Illyrians hence you get the Dardanians the predecesors of the Proto-Albanians who are of mixed Illyrian and Daco-Moesian origins in which case Albanian is at its base Illyrian + Daco-Moesian influence.
    While this cannot be entirely ruled out without further ancient DNA samples, I personally do not see it as that likely considering that R1b-Y10789 lineages do not show much diversity or basal presence in those territories that would have belonged to the precursors of the Daco-Moesians, and the Daco-Moesians themselves.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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