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Thread: Albanian DNA Project

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    This study of Albanian Y-chromsomes shows J2b to be more common overall among Ghegs compared to Tosks. E-V13 is the most common haplogroup among the Ghegs overall though and probably is among the Tosks as well. R1b is also rather common among both Albanian sub-groups while I (mainly I2a probably) seems to be more common overall among Tosks but of course is also present among Ghegs.

    http://link.springer.com/article/10....414-010-0432-x

    http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2010/03/...pulations.html
    The Thracian 192-1 , from bronze-age was/has H1 ( ydna ) IIRC .........more evidence that the Albanians as per Roman scribes and surveyors where not around modern Albania until probably first mentioned by Romans in 150AD. The huge numbers 68% means a one off migration IMO ( especially since they where never recorded)

    I can only see the indigenous pre- Bosnian populace has the major I2a ( ydna ) marker

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    The Thracian 192-1 , from bronze-age was/has H1 ( ydna ) IIRC .........more evidence that the Albanians as per Roman scribes and surveyors where not around modern Albania until probably first mentioned by Romans in 150AD. The huge numbers 68% means a one off migration IMO ( especially since they where never recorded)

    I can only see the indigenous pre- Bosnian populace has the major I2a ( ydna ) marker
    I don't think you can come to a conclusion with just one Thracian sample from the bronze age. Besides, Albanians are considered to be the southern Illyrian tribes and possibly some neighboring Thracian tribes to the west who didn't get romanized or later slavicized. Linguistical and archeological evidence so far suggests that Albanians lived in pretty much the same areas as they do now since before the Romans.

    I2a-din is a bit of a question mark to me though. Some people suggest that it was picked up by Slavs and came down to the Balkans, while some say it was there before the arrival of Slavs. Considering that it is very low among Gheg Albanians and very high among neighboring Slavic populations seems to suggest to me that most of I2a-din came with the Slavs, but I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Trojet; 04-17-2015 at 01:25 PM.

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I don't think you can come to a conclusion with just one Thracian sample from the bronze age. Besides, Albanians are considered to be the southern Illyrian tribes and possibly some neighboring Thracian tribes to the west who didn't get romanized or later slavicized. Linguistical and archeological evidence so far suggests that Albanians lived in pretty much the same areas as they do now since before the Romans.

    I2a-din is a bit of a question mark to me though. Some people suggest that it was picked up by Slavs and came down to the Balkans, while some say it was there before the arrival of Slavs. Considering that it is very low among Gheg Albanians and very high among neighboring Slavic populations seems to suggest to me that most of I2a-din came with the Slavs, but I could be wrong.
    I doubt very much Albanians were in modern Albania before the Romans noted them in 150AD. Because Roman surveyors scoured every metre of land of the Roman empire , every hill , valley and coast looking for minerals. Their roles where supported by scribes and tax collectors who noted what and who was in the areas visited.
    Since Rome "owned" albania from roughly 196BC after wars with Philip V of Macedonia, we see no mention of Albanian in Romans letters, notes or books............the simple conclusion was that Albanians where not there.

    In regards to DNA...the bulk of I2a sits in modern Bosnia, there is a small % in albania which matches the very few illyrian tribes that mixed with the local epirotes and Macedonians in modern Albania in the ancient times.

    The great illyrian revolt of 9BC was fought in Bosnia and croatia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_...rianRevolt.jpg

    After this massacre and deportation of 250000 illyrians , illyrians ceased to exist
    Last edited by vettor; 04-17-2015 at 06:59 PM.

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I doubt very much Albanians were in modern Albania before the Romans noted them in 150AD. Because Roman surveyors scoured every metre of land of the Roman empire , every hill , valley and coast looking for minerals. Their roles where supported by scribes and tax collectors who noted what and who was in the areas visited.
    Since Rome "owned" albania from roughly 196BC after wars with Philip V of Macedonia, we see no mention of Albanian in Romans letters, notes or books............the simple conclusion was that Albanians where not there.

    In regards to DNA...the bulk of I2a sits in modern Bosnia, there is a small % in albania which matches the very few illyrian tribes that mixed with the local epirotes and Macedonians in modern Albania in the ancient times.

    The great illyrian revolt of 9BC was fought in Bosnia and croatia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_...rianRevolt.jpg

    After this massacre and deportation of 250000 illyrians , illyrians ceased to exist
    Sorry buddy, but you seem to have your facts wrong
    You can come to your own conclusions, but that doesn't mean you are right. The Romans didn't mention any Albanians because they were not called Albanians back then. As you know in present day Albania there were numerous Illyrian tribes living back then.

    It was actually Ptolemy in 150 AD, not the Romans, who mentions a city called Albanopolis NE of modern day Durrės and the tribe of Albanoi (that's where Albanians got the name from later on BTW), who were viewed as Illyrians by historians.

    And then you seem to suggest that Illyrians were exclusively I2a. As the facts suggest, there is no just one haplogroup of an ethnicity. Most likely the Illyrians living up north around present day Bosnia had some I2a, but later it was probably reinforced with the arrival of the Slavs, and the Illyrians living around present Albanian speaking areas had mainly E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b.

    The current three main Albanian haplogroups (E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b) have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze age, and are mainly concentrated in the southern Balkans, so this too seems to suggest that Albanians didn't all of the sudden drop from the sky to modern day Albania, Kosovo, NW Macedonia and other places at around 150 AD.
    Last edited by Trojet; 04-17-2015 at 09:44 PM.

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Sorry buddy, but you seem to have your facts wrong
    You can come to your own conclusions, but that doesn't mean you are right. The Romans didn't mention any Albanians because they were not called Albanians back then. As you know in present day Albania there were numerous Illyrian tribes living back then.

    It was actually Ptolemy in 150 AD, not the Romans, who mentions a city called Albanopolis NE of modern day Durrės and the tribe of Albanoi (that's where Albanians got the name from later on BTW), who were viewed as Illyrians by historians.

    And then you seem to suggest that Illyrians were exclusively I2a. As the facts suggest, there is no just one haplogroup of an ethnicity. Most likely the Illyrians living up north around present day Bosnia had some I2a, but later it was probably reinforced with the arrival of the Slavs, and the Illyrians living around present Albanian speaking areas had mainly E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b.

    The current three main Albanian haplogroups (E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b) have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze age, and are mainly concentrated in the southern Balkans, so this too seems to suggest that Albanians didn't all of the sudden drop from the sky to modern day Albania, Kosovo, NW Macedonia and other places at around 150 AD.
    firstly we need to correct something...illyrians refer to a name similar in level to geographical area name , same as Scandinavia is.
    then all the illyrians tribes had many kings, customs and dialects , they where not one race/ethnicity.

    The oldest illyrians tribes are northern , east austria, slovenia, croatia and hungarian lands, they slowly migrated southwards of many centuries to be basically stopped around 400BC on the drin river by Alexander the great father, Philip ( this is recorded in historical notes ). True, some illyrian tribes escaping other illyrian tribes where allowed to settle in modern day Albania which at the time was owned and controlled by the Macedonians .... ..BTW the macedonians also annexed the 14 epirote tribes .

    the only other people who ruled modern Albania after this was the Romans. After the fall of Rome , it was others that we need not discuss.

    In regards to Indigenous "illyrian " markers ........IMO they where R1, I1 and G2 in majority, the I2a came via the cimmerians who fled to Pannonia around 700BC , the cimmerians escaped from southern ukraine as the sarmatians where entering this south ukraine area form the east.
    IIRC, the other cimmerian migrational area was eastern Turkey ( cappodacia ), I think some russian testers has matched the I2a in current bosnia with I2a in Cappodacia
    A scenario, IMO could be after the illyrian revolt of 9BC, the land made void by the Romans in modern Bosnia was replenished by these ex-cimmerians in pannonia who where celtinized dacians and others etc.

    Ptolemy wrote his papers from Alexandria Egypt while under Roman rule

    In regards to the markers you mentioned, they fit better in Thracian origins than Illyrian origins
    Last edited by vettor; 04-17-2015 at 10:11 PM.

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  9. #16
    The Balkans are a mixture of many different Y-Dnas. I wouldn't put much emphasis on the frequency of each sub-region, because they change rapidly in smaller patrilineal societies.

    The I2a Cimmerian theory of Vettor is crazy though.

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  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    firstly we need to correct something...illyrians refer to a name similar in level to geographical area name , same as Scandinavia is.
    then all the illyrians tribes had many kings, customs and dialects , they where not one race/ethnicity.

    The oldest illyrians tribes are northern , east austria, slovenia, croatia and hungarian lands, they slowly migrated southwards of many centuries to be basically stopped around 400BC on the drin river by Alexander the great father, Philip ( this is recorded in historical notes ). True, some illyrian tribes escaping other illyrian tribes where allowed to settle in modern day Albania which at the time was owned and controlled by the Macedonians .... ..BTW the macedonians also annexed the 14 epirote tribes .

    the only other people who ruled modern Albania after this was the Romans. After the fall of Rome , it was others that we need not discuss.

    In regards to Indigenous "illyrian " markers ........IMO they where R1, I1 and G2 in majority, the I2a came via the cimmerians who fled to Pannonia around 700BC , the cimmerians escaped from southern ukraine as the sarmatians where entering this south ukraine area form the east.
    IIRC, the other cimmerian migrational area was eastern Turkey ( cappodacia ), I think some russian testers has matched the I2a in current bosnia with I2a in Cappodacia
    A scenario, IMO could be after the illyrian revolt of 9BC, the land made void by the Romans in modern Bosnia was replenished by these ex-cimmerians in pannonia who where celtinized dacians and others etc.

    Ptolemy wrote his papers from Alexandria Egypt while under Roman rule

    In regards to the markers you mentioned, they fit better in Thracian origins than Illyrian origins
    While Cimmerians might be associated with I2a (in some part) there is nothing to suggest that is the case. Without a single Cimmerian sample there is no way you can be as confident as you are. And the archeology of Cimmerian cultures in the steppe makes an association with R1b-L23, R1a-Z282 and R1a-Z93+ more likely than I2a.

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  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    firstly we need to correct something...illyrians refer to a name similar in level to geographical area name , same as Scandinavia is.
    then all the illyrians tribes had many kings, customs and dialects , they where not one race/ethnicity.

    The oldest illyrians tribes are northern , east austria, slovenia, croatia and hungarian lands, they slowly migrated southwards of many centuries to be basically stopped around 400BC on the drin river by Alexander the great father, Philip ( this is recorded in historical notes ). True, some illyrian tribes escaping other illyrian tribes where allowed to settle in modern day Albania which at the time was owned and controlled by the Macedonians .... ..BTW the macedonians also annexed the 14 epirote tribes .

    the only other people who ruled modern Albania after this was the Romans. After the fall of Rome , it was others that we need not discuss.

    In regards to Indigenous "illyrian " markers ........IMO they where R1, I1 and G2 in majority, the I2a came via the cimmerians who fled to Pannonia around 700BC , the cimmerians escaped from southern ukraine as the sarmatians where entering this south ukraine area form the east.
    IIRC, the other cimmerian migrational area was eastern Turkey ( cappodacia ), I think some russian testers has matched the I2a in current bosnia with I2a in Cappodacia
    A scenario, IMO could be after the illyrian revolt of 9BC, the land made void by the Romans in modern Bosnia was replenished by these ex-cimmerians in pannonia who where celtinized dacians and others etc.

    Ptolemy wrote his papers from Alexandria Egypt while under Roman rule

    In regards to the markers you mentioned, they fit better in Thracian origins than Illyrian origins
    The only way that we will ever know exactly which Y-DNA haplogroups the Illyrians carried are by testing ancient remains.

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  15. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    While Cimmerians might be associated with I2a (in some part) there is nothing to suggest that is the case. Without a single Cimmerian sample there is no way you can be as confident as you are. And the archeology of Cimmerian cultures in the steppe makes an association with R1b-L23, R1a-Z282 and R1a-Z93+ more likely than I2a.
    maybe you can give your version on how I2a got to modern bosnia

    It is my opinion on how events occurred, clearly it is not associated with ancient slavic, because slavs where not mentioned anywhere pre the 7th century. The marker was clearly in the balkans before the 7th century.

    Have my doubts on your opinions it was the R1's you mentioned , they timing is off for this
    Last edited by vettor; 04-17-2015 at 11:36 PM.

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  16. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    maybe you can give your version on how I2a got to modern bosnia

    It is my opinion on how events occurred, clearly it is not associated with ancient slavic, because slavs where not mentioned anywhere pre the 7th century. The marker was clearly in the balkans before the 7th century.

    Have my doubts on your opinions it was the R1's you mentioned , they timing is off for this
    Could be anything from Slavs to Goths to Illyrians to Celts to Thracians to Cimmerians/Scythians to just being a local marker before any of these modern groups. Personally I lean towards some combination of it being local and Slavic.

    But we have no ADNA from the region so anything we throw out there is speculation. And it isn't even reasonable speculation because we know almost nothing about Cimmerians, their language, what their dna was like and they didn't survive so we can't base anything on modern popultion. And Cimmerians are so late in history that they probably had a mixed y gene pool that encompassed a lot of lineages from the steppe/forest steppe/Caucasus and Balkans. I really doubt any steppe group this late was dominated by one lineage especially a non R1 lineage.

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