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Thread: Albanian DNA Project

  1. #2061
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    Quote Originally Posted by olive picker View Post
    Probably not much different from their fellow contemporary Albanians who lived in other territories, whether it be in Albania proper or further north. They spoke the same language, used the same tribal system, usually occupied the same "way of life" i.e pastoral and warlike. Same ethnic attire, culture, names (there are even Arvanites with typically Gheg surnames) and so on.
    Sure, there wasn't a national identity in the way we have it today, but that goes for the contemporary Albanians in the other regions as well (and for every single modern ethnicity), however we still call them Albanians, not because they had some sort of modern conception of a national identity, but rather because of their spoken language, history (origin) and customs/wtradition. Your argument becomes quite absurd because it would imply that even the other "non-Arvanite" Albanians couldn't be called Albanians because they didn't have that modern conception of a national identity. Honestly, the entire argument about national identity is quite weak anyway in the first place considering it was something adopted rather early specifically by Albanians thanks to Skanderbeg.


    That's right. I read a few years ago that they actually even used the term "Shkije" for the Romans/Greeks, which roughly translates to "foreigner", i.e a non-Albanian. Sort of like the word Gaijin that Japanese use for the non-Japanese. I think that this alone shows that they did have some sort of identity that could be properly called Albanian, because they did not use this term towards other Arvanites. Today, that word is mostly used for slavs or specifically Serbs.


    I'm honestly not sure what you mean by felt very close to the Romans/Greeks. I imagine the fact that they belonged to the Orthodox church definitely had something to do with it, and also the fact that the Arvanites migrated there upon being invited in the first place. I do think some Albanians like to downplay the religious attitude medieval Albanians had towards religion. I don't think that they necessarily were very ambivalent towards it as it is often portrayed. Skanderbeg himself was viewed as a Christian hero, and his own father died as a monk in Mt. Athos.
    Which argument of me was absurd? Sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    Im afraid you still cannot or rather don't want to distinguish theories from evidence. The works you are talking about which you haven't presented yet yourself, includes theories, no evidence of anything. Finally, you yourself stated above that everyone has his agenda. Don't be sanctimonious towards me.
    We have to make do with the evidence and sources that we have. And sure everyone has agendas or opinions, but unlike you I have not been constantly making comments that you do not like what I am presenting to you purely because of your ethnicity.

    From the chapter The Lexicon of Albanian, from Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics (Jared Klein, Brian Joseph, Matthias Fritz, Mark Wenthe):

    As even the basic terms of the Christian sphere are of Latin origin (e.g. kungon 'to give/receive communion' <- commūnicāre 'id.', bekon 'bless' <- benedīcere 'id.', elter/lter 'altar' <- altāre 'id.'; see Demiraj 1999), it is evident that the Albanians were christianized under Roman Catholic influence.

    From L'elemento latino della lingua albanese — un impatto della Via Egnatia? (Joachim Matzinger):

    Se il territorio della formazione della lingua albanese fosse identico a quello dove č oggi parlato l'albanese, cioč pił o meno l'Albania odierna, risp. la proposta terza area latinizzata della Via Egnatia, dovrebbe manifestarsi un influsso linguistico pił intenso del greco antico sul proto-albanese che invece non esiste.59 Dunque, il territorio del proto-albanese non ha potuto trovarsi vicino all'area compatta grecofona nel sud della penisola balcanica. In questo contesto spetta un'importanza grande anche al fatto che la cristianizzazione degli albanesi ha avuto luogo sotto l'influsso romano-occidentale come testimonia senza dubbi il vocabolario di base cristiano dell'albanese, cf. p.es. kryq 'cruce' <- latino crūx, -cis (cf. greco σταυρός), ghego antico (i) shźjntė 'santo' <- latino sānctus (cf. greco ἅγιoς), ecc.;60 cf. anche l'appendice.

    From The Origin of the Albanians: Linguistically Investigated (Shaban Demiraj):

    Various scholars like Mihăescu (1966/a, p. 32), Ēabej (1974, p.54), Pellegrini (1982, p. 101 and 1995, p. 223), Ajeti (1994, p.54), Mansaku (1995, p. 74 sq.) etc. have affirmed that the Christian terminology in Albanian is of Latin source and rather ancient... Concerning the ancient Christian terminology in Albanian, we are going to dwell a little more upon the opinions of the Romanian scholar H. Mihăescu, who has paid a particular attention to the Latin loanwords of Albanian. According to Mihăescu (1966/a, p. 32), "In the field of the religious ideology of the ancestors of the Albanians have borrowed some pre-Christian pagan terms and later on they have held uninterrupted relations with the western Church, whereas the ancestors of the Rumanians were orientated towards Byzantium." And in this case he mentions some Albanian terms as Christi natale > kėrshėndellė, episcopus > peshkop, upeshk, ipeshkv, Evangelium > Ungjill, miraculum > mrekull, paganus > i pėganė/i pėgėrė 'dirty', roaslia > rshajė, Sanctam Trinitatem > Shėndėrtat etc. Ēabej (1974)... He points out on page 20 of his treatise: "The Christian terminology of Latin source represents the most ancient layer of the religious idiom, it is more ancient than its Greek layer and is also used by the Orthodox element of the country".
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    Thanks for these theories based on the terminology of the late middle age Albanian language. Just given that this theory would correctly conclude that these words are taken from the latin, of course we don’t know when and under what circumstances the pre-Albanians or albanophone people adopted these terms. Did it happen in late antiquity or much later? Do we have any evidence on what Christianity looked like in today’s albania when it became the main religion? We all know that until 1054 there was only one Catholic Church, so it is also possible that for a short period in the beginning (late antiquity) latin terms were adopted (when the latin language was still wider spread in the eastern empire) but the church language in the mass was mainly Greek or rapidly became Greek. Or are you of the opinion that the first Christian Albanians had their mass held in Latin and that this changed only after 1204?
    Last edited by Chatzianastasoglou; 10-13-2021 at 02:05 PM.

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    From Shaban Demiraj's The Origin of the Albanians: Linguistically Investigated:

    Concerning the time when the Christian terminology has penetrated into Albanian, Ēabej, like Mihăescu, has not expressed a precise opinion. However, he affirms (on p. 21): "The influence of Latin in Albania, as it is known, has started three centuries earlier than in the Rumanian area. And the links with the Roman world and its cultural currents have continued in the Albanian language even after the Slavic immigration into the Balkan Peninsula, and were thus not interrupted, as it happened to Rumania". From this affirmation as well as from that of p. 19 concerning the early diffusion of Christianity in the Illyrian sea-shore one can draw the conclusion that, according to Ēabej, the most ancient layer of the Christian terminology in Albanian should date back to the first centuries of the New Era.

    The ancientness of the Christian terminology in Albanian is evidenced, first of all, by the deep sound changes they have undergone in full accordance with the evolution of the phonetic system of this language. Moreover, because of the substantial phonetic changes, that have taken place in some of such words in the course of centuries, it is rather difficult to reconstruct their ancient forms without the necessary etymological explications. Such is for ex. the case of Shėndėrtat, which has evolved from Latin Sanctam trinitatem. By comparing the Albanian evidenced form with its Latin source once can easily observe not only the well-known /s/>/sh/ evolution but also the phonetic reduction and the sound changes within this word as compared to its Latin source, Sanctam Trinitatem.
    Thus, one may affirm that the most ancient Christian terms of Latin source have undergone such phonetic changes, which are characteristic of the most ancient layer of the Latin loans in Albanian, as the evolutions /s/>/sh/, /au/>/a/, /e/>/ie/, /o/>/ua/ue/, the rhotacism in the southern dialect etc. And it should be noted that such ancient phenomena have also appeared in some proper names of Latin source as Paulus > Pal, Stephanus > Shtjefėn, Antonius > Ndue, Martinus > Mėrtķ / Mėrtir, Joanes > Gjon, Georgius > Gjergj etc.
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  6. #2065
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    Sounds quite speculative and unfortunately doesn’t answer my questions, as expected. But thanks for the trouble

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    Interestingly, it has been argued that the typical Albanian personal name Pal may have entered Albanian prior to the diffusion of Christianity into the region, dating back earlier than the fourth century CE:

    The proper name Pāl, which has penetrated among the ancestors of the Albanians through the Romans, has evolved from Latin Paulus, or more exactly Paullus. This proper name has been used by Romans prior to the appearance of the Christian religion (compare the Roman consul Paulus Aemilius of the II century B.C.). This proper name is encountered among all Christian populations, but in the form Pal it appears only in Albanian, whereas in other languages it is used in other forms, as for ex. Paolo (in Italina), Paul (= Pol in French), Paul (= Po:l in English), Pavlos (in Greek), Pavle - Pavao (in Serbian-Croatian), Pavăl - Paul (in Rumanian) etc.
    The form Pal < Pāl is now being used more in Northern Albania, where it has been evidenced since relatively ancient times. One might mention for ex. the names of Pal Dukagjini, a contemporary of Scanderbeg (XV century). This name appears relatively often in the Ottoman Register of 1485 (for the district of Scodra), as for ex.: Pali, the son of Nicola, Pali, the son of Shirgji, Pal Buri, Pal Lumo, Gjon Pali, Petr Pali, Pal Marku etc., Pal Gjergji, Pal Lumi, Pal Gjoni, Kola Pali, Pal Kuēi etc.
    By Buzuku and by Budi this name is used with a long /a/ (Pāl), as for ex. in Buzuku's book: Paal (= Pāl); but on p. XVIII he writes Pal (with a short /a/). Budi, too, regularly uses this name with a long /a/:... frat Paal-it 'to frior Paul',... i Shėn Paali i bekuom 'the blessed Saint Paul' etc. Whereas Bogdani writes it with a short /a/: I shėn Pal-it 'Saint Paul', but in the preface of his book he writes it with a long /a/: S. Paal-i 'Saint Paul'.

    The ancient form Pal is rather widespread in some southern areas as well, as for ex. in Myzeqé and Korēa etc., but in Southern Albania the Greek influenced form Pavėl, Pavl-i is more in use. It should be noted that the name of Shėn Pal 'Saint Paul' is in use all over Albania. One should also mention the tribal name Gjipal-i < Gjin Pal-i in certain villages of South-western Albania. Dhirmo (1974, p.44) also mentions the micro-toponym Vij-e Pale (in the village of Fterra).
    The ancient use of the form Pal is evidenced, inter alia, by the Ottoman Registers of the XV-XVI centuries. One should particularly mention here the Ottoman Register of Aulona (of the year 1520), in which Pal is encountered not only as a forename but also as a family name for the district of Dropull (at present inhabited by a Greek minority); for ex. Pal Ēupi, Petri Pali, Pal Busi, Gjon Pali, Nika Pali, Pal Petri, Pali Kosta, Guna Pali, Gjin Pali, Pali Tupe, Pal Nika, Vertho Pali etc. But there is also encountered the new form Pavėl.
    The form Pal (as well as the new one Pavėl) appears in the Ottoman Register of Delvina district of 1583, too, as for ex. Pali, Pali Gjoni, Pal Gola, Pali Dhimo etc.
    The form Pal is also attested by the Arbėreshė of Italy in the XVIII century. It should be noted that an ancient popular poem by them is dedicated to their legendary hero Pal Golemi. Moreover, in Gabriele Dara's poem, in addition to this legendary hero are also mentioned Pal Manėzi and Pal Dukagjini, contemporary with Scanderbeg.
    The proper name Pal < Pāl should have been used by the ancestors of the Albanians since that period, when the diphthong /au/ was reduced to /a/; such a phenomenon appears not only in inherited ancient words like qaj < klaj < *klau- 'to weep' etc., but also in an ancient layer of Latin loans like ar < aurum 'gold', gaz < gaudium 'joy', lar < laurum 'laurel', pak < paucus 'little' etc. However, in some other Latin loans, which should have been borrowed somewhat later, the diphthong /au/ has yielded /av/, as for ex. lavd 'glory' < laus - laud-is, kafshė 'beast' < causa etc. There fore the proper name Pal < Paulus should have penetrated early into Albanian, probably prior to the diffusion of the Christian faith. At any rate, it should date back earlier than the IV century A.D.
    Taking into account the ancient use of this proper name among the Albanians it should be admitted that the final /-l/ in Pāl should have evolved from a double /-l-/ between two vowels. Therefore the Albanian Pāl, as well as the Rumanian Paul, has evolved from the Latin form Paullus.
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    Quite intersting the analysis of Pr. Demiraj, regarding the Albanian onomastics, few examples:
    Pal Brazna & Pavlo Brazna (probably brothers, 'old' fashion name and 'new' name !)
    https://i.imgur.com/72zlsIH.jpg

    Leka Muzaka & Aleksi Muzaka
    https://i.imgur.com/5DoGGkV.jpg

    Also, i just read about the interesting case of probably the first known 'Leka' in History, the Byzantine renegade Leka which organized the rebellion in the year 1079 in Philipopolis (Plovdiv) south Bulgaria:
    Near the end of the 1070s, the Pechenegs entered into an alliance against Nikephoros III Botaneiates with Lekas, a Byzantine renegade linked to the nomads by marriage. Lekas ultimately submitted to the emperor’s authority, but this did not mean the nomads followed suit. Nikephoros Bryennios, the son or grandson of the unlucky pretender to the emperor’s throne, mentions in his Material for History some ‘Scythians’ who devastated the lands between Niš and Scupi around 1079.91 Alexios Komnenos marched against them, but the nomads, upon receiving word of his forces’ approach, retreated beyond the Balkan Mountains. In 1080, a campaign led by Leo Diabatenos momentarily pacified the Pechenegs and the Cumans, with both groups agreeing to enter into an alliance with the Empire.

    In terms of the relations between the Empire and its ‘Scythian’ subjects, the 1070s seems to have reflected a continuation of the status quo, rather than a turning point. The weakness of the Empire and the chaos it was struggling with provided the Pechenegs with additional freedom, and as a result, an increase in their attacks. Both Byzantine pretenders to the throne and renegades like Nestor and Lekas entered into alliances with the nomads, which to some extent legitimized their actions.
    https://i.imgur.com/MnHoW9t.jpg

    https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=25927

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  11. #2068
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    ... We all know that until 1054 there was only one Catholic Church, so it is also possible that for a short period in the beginning (late antiquity) latin terms were adopted (when the latin language was still wider spread in the eastern empire) but the church language in the mass was mainly Greek or rapidly became Greek. Or are you of the opinion that the first Christian Albanians had their mass held in Latin and that this changed only after 1204?
    It did not seem Greek was adopted rapidly :

    https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/illyria

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  13. #2069
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    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    It did not seem Greek was adopted rapidly :

    https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/illyria
    Thanks, quite informative. It’s interesting to read that the Latin influence was bound on geographical jurisdiction, not particular peoples. That makes sense of course. The question is, if all of the Protoalbanian area of settlement lay within the Illyricum. Probably yes, which again implies that today’s southern Albania (Epirus) had only Greeks at this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    Which argument of me was absurd? Sorry
    That the Arvanites were just Albanian speaking Greeks.

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