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Thread: S21184 has something to tell us

  1. #1
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    S21184 has something to tell us

    It's hard to say what, at this point... anyway, S21184 needs a thread of its own. There hasn't been much chatter about it, except on a closed Facebook list about P312 -- and that isn't the best place to archive something of broader significance. I'll start this by quoting myself from last April:

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    One of our Big Y testers, kit B2323, was able to verify S21184 in his "variants.vcf" file. This is a new SNP under Z220 that is mutually exclusive with Z295 (parent of both of the previously known large branches, in shorthand the "Z216" and the "CTS4065" groups). It was recognized in the 2000 Chromo2 results (and seems to have at least one subclade). At the moment we don't know which of our Z220 members may already have tested for it on the Chromo2 chip, since those results aren't necessarily reported to us. Anyway, I've created Group Baa for S21184, and will submit the request for that SNP test at FTDNA. It can currently be tested at YSEQ.
    During the recent FTDNA winter sale, a number of SNP tests for S21184 were ordered, many of which have now reported (some negative, some positive). In addition, we have Big Y results for at least three more S21184+ members of the R1b-DF27 project. Its subclade S19290 (previously known from the Chromo2 chip) includes a couple of our members identified so far, one with Big Y results; and a new SNP (FGC13557), found as a shared novel variant in the Big Y tests of the other three, now defines another S21184 subclade that is mutually exclusive with S19290. The tests for both are available at YSEQ, and I have just requested them at FTDNA. I have moved the identified members into new subgroups, currently called Baaa and Baab, in the project's STR results: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/

    Their MDKAs are from most of Europe from Hungary to the British Isles, and it's a little hard to see much of a pattern, yet. It may be necessary to refine this picture quite a bit more, bringing it into harmony with YFull, ISOGG or other trees, etc. S16785 seems (from Chromo2 examples) to be a subclade of S19290. A SNP variously called Z419/PF5310 appears to be at the same level as S21184, or its "equivalent." The positions are called, but the SNP names are not used, in Big Y novel variants. YBrowse is down at the moment, so for the convenience of anybody who wants to look for these in his own results I'll go ahead and list the mutations.

    18706363 G to A S21184+
    17130559 C to T Z419/PF5310+ (equivalent of S21184?)
    17148095 A to T S19290+ (subclade of S21184)
    15126353 G to A S16785+ (subclade of S19290?)
    14828314 G to A FGC13557+ (subclade of S21184)

    There may be other SNPs in this area worthy of our attention, that just have not yet come to mine. One more was suggested in Chromo2 results as a subclade of S16785: 16912464 A to C (CTS6458+). However, that one recurs in another haplogroup, at least, and would perhaps waste our time. Those who are following these developments, particularly at YSEQ and YFull, may be ahead of me already. I just feel the need to get a thread started for recording such discussions.
    Last edited by razyn; 02-15-2015 at 12:45 AM.

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    Another Big Y posted today, kit N74373, with S21184+ and FGC13557+ visible as novel variants. I moved him into the new group Baab. He's Norwegian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    During the recent FTDNA winter sale, a number of SNP tests for S21184 were ordered, many of which have now reported (some negative, some positive). In addition, we have Big Y results for at least three more S21184+ members of the R1b-DF27 project. Its subclade S19290 (previously known from the Chromo2 chip) includes a couple of our members identified so far, one with Big Y results; and a new SNP (FGC13557), found as a shared novel variant in the Big Y tests of the other three, now defines another S21184 subclade that is mutually exclusive with S19290. The tests for both are available at YSEQ, and I have just requested them at FTDNA. I have moved the identified members into new subgroups, currently called Baaa and Baab, in the project's STR results: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/
    I'm refreshing this thread to report that as of today these two SNPs, S19290 and FGC13557, may be ordered (as Advanced SNP tests) at FTDNA. Meanwhile, both were included on the new R1b-DF27 chip test recently marketed by YSEQ.

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    My dad's kit recently tested S21184, and I have S19290 on order as that seems a little more local to UK/Ireland. (I'm too lazy to send in another cheek sample for now)

    Even though I have a generic last name, I suspect we have Norman French (local French immigrants to England with William rather than Scandinavian origin) or possibly Huguenot origin from NW France/Belgium.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    The latest S19290 (subclade of S21184) is a Finn, who still lives there -- with MDKA in Turku.

    FTDNA doesn't call this SNP; I just saw the mutation in his BigY novel variants. Also, the "shared novel variants" matching function hasn't worked, for several weeks -- the latest working example I have in the DF27 project posted 4/18. Presumably, that will get addressed after the people who fix things get back to Houston from manning the FTDNA booth at the NGS convention in Missouri, and read the backlog of grouchy emails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    The latest S19290 (subclade of S21184) is a Finn, who still lives there -- with MDKA in Turku.

    FTDNA doesn't call this SNP; I just saw the mutation in his BigY novel variants. Also, the "shared novel variants" matching function hasn't worked, for several weeks -- the latest working example I have in the DF27 project posted 4/18. Presumably, that will get addressed after the people who fix things get back to Houston from manning the FTDNA booth at the NGS convention in Missouri, and read the backlog of grouchy emails.
    It's interesting because the surname is actually Germanic or Swedish, but I am no expert on the matter because adoption of surnames seems a little different in Scandinavia.
    There is also kit # 308908 MDKA Finland who is currently S21184, but I would highly recommend testing further!

    On Yfull, there is also an Israeli, and a Spaniard in S19290. This is looking to be a very interesting branch.
    If I have selected this SNP a la carte with FTDNA, does that mean I won't get a result?
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 05-24-2015 at 08:54 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  12. #7
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    You will of course get the S19290+/- result if you order a la carte but I think Dick is referring to the fact that if you do a Big-Y, FTDNA will just throw every relatively new SNP onto their pile with unnamed novel SNPs. In that case you have to check all by yourself (or the always helpful admins) to see if you are positive or negative for that mutation by looking up what mutation corresponds with what SNP name. If they would update their tree the Big-Y results would be so much more accessible. If I didn't know any better and would follow FTDNA I would still be 'stuck' at a terminal SNP of Z210+. With the help of the community I now know that I'm FGC13557+.

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    Ah darn, S19290-. I'm not a great gambler I guess!

    I just ordered, FGC13557, I have my fingers crossed.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    It's interesting because the surname is actually Germanic or Swedish, but I am no expert on the matter because adoption of surnames seems a little different in Scandinavia.
    There is also kit # 308908 MDKA Finland who is currently S21184, but I would highly recommend testing further!
    My surname is actually Swedish or Norwegian. The results of #308908 are coming soon, too. It's not relevant that we both are Finnish, I think our ancestors have not lived in Finland before the 17th century and not in Scandinavia before the 16th century. Our genetic "cousins" in Sweden used German forenames in 16th century, that can be relevant.

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    My dad's test, and indirectly my own just came back FGC13557+.
    Cheers
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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