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Thread: Neanderthal Y & mtdna haplogroup(s)

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    Neanderthal Y & mtdna haplogroup(s)

    So I'm curious and wondering if anyone has come across any insider information about the haplogroups of the Neanderthals (I can't find anything specific about it). Or if you have a suspicion or any sort of hypothesis on which y & mtdna haplogroups originates from the Neanderthals. Your insight is highly appreciated.

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    No Sapiens mtDNA and Y haplogroup originates from Neanderthal. This has been established more than 20 years ago. Neanderthals will have their own haplogroups but I doubt there are enough samples so far to sort them out yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hector View Post
    No Sapiens mtDNA and Y haplogroup originates from Neanderthal. This has been established more than 20 years ago. Neanderthals will have their own haplogroups but I doubt there are enough samples so far to sort them out yet.
    I'm not disagreeing. What is the scenario for the Neanderthal atDNA that some of us may have?
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    ^ One possibility I always held in mind was some sort of sporadic integration-elimination model. Isolated cases of Neanderthal individuals mating with post-OoA humans, with most (not all) of the hybrid children not producing progeny to pass down the Neanderthal uniparental markers for various reasons. This could include socio-cultural or developmental (deemed too "different" to be fully accepted into a community?) attributes.

    There are only two possible generational pairings I can foresee working with the current Y-DNA and mtDNA data:
    1) Neanderthal male and H.S.S. female -> hybrid female (end result = loss of Neanderthal Y-DNA, retained human mtDNA, ~50% Neanderthal auDNA)
    2) Neanderthal female and H.S.S. male -> hybrid male, who mates with H.S.S. female (end result = maintained human Y-DNA, replacement of Neanderthal with human mtDNA in second generation, ~25% Neanderthal auDNA)

    I am not an anthropologist and don't even have a layperson understanding of early human culture, so have no ideas regarding which scenario would be more applicable to our apparently randy ancestors. I've seen a lot of confidence online from various users that the mixing was H.S.S. male->Neanderthal female, but I do question the source of that conviction (Hollywood caveman stereotype?).

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    The pattern of sex-biased mating can be deduced from the ratio of the Neanderthal portion on X chromosome and autosomes but since male hybrids are generally infertile this becomes inconclusive not to mention the likely scenario where Neanderthal genes on X experience higher negative selections. But children are generally raised by mothers so it is more likely Sapiens females and Neanderthal males not to mention the fact Neanderthals were probably far stronger than Sapiens. However if patriarchial societies were the norm then it could be Sapiens males and Neanderthal females as abducted females live in abductors' society. But I don't see Sapiens males abducting much stronger Neanderthal females.

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    We have some Neanderthal mtDNA samples, they fall outside the range of modern variation:


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    We have some Neanderthal mtDNA samples
    Do we have also Neanderthal Y-DNA samples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Do we have also Neanderthal Y-DNA samples?
    As far as I know - we don't have. There is only one good-quality Neanderthal genome(Altai Neanderthal) and it's from a woman.

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    John Hawks recently... "Neandertal sex acts are beyond counting"
    http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/...ting-2016.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hairyman View Post
    John Hawks recently... "Neandertal sex acts are beyond counting"
    http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/...ting-2016.html
    Quoting from the John Hawks post:
    Importantly, there is no sign that the population was ever much smaller than 10,000 effective individuals, and that puts a lower limit on the number of hybrids that must have been introduced into this population to account for the Neandertal ancestry of its descendants. If these ancestors mixed with Neandertals during the minimum of such a bottleneck, then the effective number of F1 hybrids responsible for this mixture may have been as small as 400.
    I wonder if Hawks considered the geographic distribution of the effective population size? Is it plausible that the OoA population never had an effective population size less than 10,000? That seems unlikely, and we could be looking at a much smaller number of interbreeding events with the OoA population.

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