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Thread: Y Haplogroup : R-DF21 + R - L21 outside Anglo-Saxon countries

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    Y Haplogroup : R-DF21 + R - L21 outside Anglo-Saxon countries

    Hello. I belong to the Y-DNA Haplogroup R-L21 and R-DF21, but I didn't find anyone with this kind of DNA except two men in Ireland. My family is from Brazil, and I'd like to know if this haplogroup is common just in UK and Ireland, since there was so few people with this characteristics inside the "Family Tree DNA" database.

    My family is living in Brazil since the middle ages, in an isolated community inside the Atlantic Forest, and I don't know how could they be descendants of Irish people. This history is strange and fascinating.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    I should note that "Anglos-Saxon" is not a term most Irish people would accept (English only became a majority language in Ireland circa 1800) . Anyways DF21 is an old haplogroup with a wide spread. What level of testing have you done?
    (R1b-DF41+)
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    I'm sorry for my english. My genes speak english, my brain speaks portuguese I've made the test called "12 Marker" in the website "Family Tree DNA".

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    Quote Originally Posted by JosÚ Santos View Post
    I'm sorry for my english. My genes speak english, my brain speaks portuguese I've made the test called "12 Marker" in the website "Family Tree DNA".
    Your genes might speak some sorta Celtic as oppose to English 12 STR's isn't really that usefull, I would recommend upgrading to at least 37 STR's, where did you get your DF21 result from? Was it National Genographic Geno 2.0 product?
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    Yep, much L21 and almost all DF21 is found outside Anglo-Saxon regions. L21 is spread through what were formerly or still are Celtic regions. DF21 has but a small presence in modern day England , just enough to show that it too was once Celtic, and a good showing on the Celtic countries or Ireland and Scotland. Some folks in Northern Spain and Northern Portugal also consider themselves Celtic. But if you establish what sub-clade of DF21 you belong to, we can be more precise than just speaking about countries.
    As has been suggested to you, an upgrade from Y12 may be one way, as that may help to match you with one of our known DF21+ sub-groups: S971, FGC3213, FGC3903 or S5488. Better still, in my opinion, a SNP test. New Generation Sequencing (NGS) such as Family Tree DNA's Big Y are discovery tests that will deliver your markers, not just test you for someone else's markers.

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    L21 may have been the victim of multiple arrivals in Eastern England. Based on FTDNA project data, the present day distribution of L21 in England is lowest where U152 is coincidentally the highest.

    Suffolk: L21=2%, U152=9%
    Norfolk: L21=4%, U152=15%
    Essex: L21=5%, U152=12%

    Don't get hung up on the percentages above, as R1b appears to be under represented in the FTDNA projects when compared to non R1b, so they are probably a little higher for both L21 and U152.

    Could the low percentages for L21 in this area be the result of the La Tene/Belgic arrivals (potential sources for U152), followed by the Romans (another source for U152) and then the Anglo Saxons (Hg I and U106)?
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-25-2016 at 06:57 AM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    L21 may have been the victim of multiple arrivals in Eastern England. Based on FTDNA project data, the present day distribution of L21 in England is lowest where U152 is coincidentally the highest.

    Suffolk: L21=2%, U152=9%
    Norfolk: L21=4%, U152=15%
    Essex: L21=5%, U152=12%

    Don't get hung up on the percentages above, as R1b appears to be under represented in the FTDNA projects when compared to non R1b, so they are probably a little higher for both L21 and U152.

    Could the low percentages for L21 in this area be the result of the La Tene/Belgic arrivals (potential sources for U152), followed by the Romans (another source for U152) and then the Anglo Saxons (Hg I and U106)?
    U106 is only 36% of R1b in south east England, which R1b subgroups does the other 64% of R1b belong to?

    Here are the percentages for Irelandsdna/Scotlandsdna.com database for Ireland and Britain.

    R1b 70%
    S116 9%
    S145 21%
    M222 7%
    S285 5%
    S735 7%
    S21 16%

    I 16%

    R1a 4%

    J 3%

    E3%

    G 2%
    Last edited by northkerry; 01-25-2016 at 02:00 PM. Reason: added resuts

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    Quote Originally Posted by northkerry View Post
    U106 is only 36% of R1b in south east England, which R1b subgroups does the other 64% of R1b belong to?

    Here are the percentages for Irelandsdna/Scotlandsdna.com database for Ireland and Britain.

    R1b 70%
    S116 9%
    S145 21%
    M222 7%
    S285 5%
    S735 7%
    S21 16%

    I 16%

    R1a 4%

    J 3%

    E3%

    G 2%
    Can't speak for BDNA results but here were my overall results. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post131772

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post131770

    In Kent U106 was 18 of the 40 R1b (45%)
    L21 was 17.5%
    DF27 was 12.5%
    U152 was 10.%
    DF99 was 2.5%
    P312 was 2.5%
    R1b was 10.0%
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-25-2016 at 03:57 PM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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    Quote Originally Posted by JosÚ Santos View Post
    Hello. I belong to the Y-DNA Haplogroup R-L21 and R-DF21, but I didn't find anyone with this kind of DNA except two men in Ireland. My family is from Brazil, and I'd like to know if this haplogroup is common just in UK and Ireland, since there was so few people with this characteristics inside the "Family Tree DNA" database.

    My family is living in Brazil since the middle ages, in an isolated community inside the Atlantic Forest, and I don't know how could they be descendants of Irish people. This history is strange and fascinating.
    Bem-vindo JosÚ. Do you know where in Portugal your male line ancestor lived before migrating to Brazil? Was it in the north? There is some L21 there which could have arrived in two ways:

    • In the Bronze Age (c. 1300 to 700 BC), with trade from Britain and Ireland along the Atlantic.
    • In the Post-Roman period when some Romano-British Christians fled to Gallaecia, which was larger than the present region of Galicia, encompassing Asturias and Leon (Spain) and northern Portugal. A British diocese there is first mentioned in 572, with its see probably at the monastery of Santa Maria de Breto˝a near Mondo˝edo.


    L21.JPG
    Last edited by Jean M; 01-25-2016 at 03:37 PM.

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    Thanks Jean for developing my suggestion further. I hesitated to make too much of it because while L21 amongst the Gallegos is nothing unusual, I am unaware of any DF21 yet. We have one Iberian-sounding member in the R-DF21 project, kit 374484, ancestor Manuel Diaz b 1850, unknown origin. As Jose has not joined the R-DF21 Project, I don't know if he and Se˝or Diaz would group together. It would provide more information to work with if Jose joined the R-DF21 Project and if he and Se˝or Diaz both tested what sub-clade of DF21 they belong to. The search for a Continental DF21, which is a Holy Grail for some, might then bear fruit. Who knows.

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