Cymru DNA Wales

[avalon]

For those interested in Welsh DNA, this program will air on S4C (the Welsh language channel) on Sunday. Thanks to Debbie Kennett for posting at her blog.

http://www.s4c.cymru/cymrudnawales/e_index.shtml

http://cruwys.blogspot.com.au/

They have said this in their blurb -

The coming of farming changed lives utterly and it was brought to Britain by migrations of men, first a group that may be identified by the DNA haplogroup G and later innovators known as the BeakerPeople. Around 2,500 they brought a DNA Y chromosome haplogroup labelled R1b-S145.

It is common in Wales and all down the west of Britain – and it is our hypothesis that the farmers came with an early version of theWelsh language in their mouths. Dialects of Old Welsh were spoken all over Britain and it is our belief that it was the earliest language to describe the landscape, animals and people. DNA and the movement of languages are often closely linked and we will attempt to answer a question – how long have the Welsh spoken Welsh?

[Anglecynn]

Kind of unclear whether they are saying an ancestor/relative of Welsh was brought by Beaker People or by G carriers.

[avalon]

Kind of unclear whether they are saying an ancestor/relative of Welsh was brought by Beaker People or by G carriers.

I think they are saying Beaker but refer to them as farmers in the same vein as the G people.

[TigerMW]

It is common in Wales and all down the west of Britain – and it is our hypothesis that the farmers came with an early version of the Welsh language in their mouths...

If they are saying this, there seems to be a disconnect in their logic.

The first farmers did not have the full suite of Proto-IndoEuropean things with them. As a result they did not have the full set of Proto-IndoEuropean words. One could speculate that the early farmers in Britain spoke some pre-Indo-European language, but we don't have any evidence that is true. It could have been anything. Do they say there there is a reason they think the first farmers on Britain spoke an IE language, or even a pre-PIE language?

[TigerMW]

I think they are saying Beaker but refer to them as farmers in the same vein as the G people.

If they are tying Beaker folks to the first farmers or somehow mixing a description of both into the same timeframe, that's a bit "loosey-goosey", similar to how politicians can speak. This kind of cloudy speech allows one to later claim that one's self was right no matter what the reality.

[rossa]

Sounds similar to this blurb from Ireland's DNA.
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ma...cide-1.1426197

[alan]

Sounds similar to this blurb from Ireland's DNA.
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ma...cide-1.1426197

Allegedly Moffat shows a number of traits an amateur dabbling in archaeology there. The idea of an early arrival of farming in any permanent way as early as the date he quotes seems based on the anomolous Ferriter's Cove cattle bone but more recent analysis of radiocarbon dating now date the first lasting settlement of farmers in Ireland around 3850BC and Kerry is a very unlikely spot for first arrival. The culture of the first farmers clearly shows they either came via Britain or from an identical source.

I also a kind of amazed he is still peddling the Iberia link. I think within months of L21 being discovered it was clear that most Iberians other than the Basques-who may be originally from SW France- are negative for L21 and have turned out to be DF27. L21 and of course the autosomal patterns of the Irish would appear to suggest a much more northerly intrusion in post-Neolithic times that makes the Irish cluster with north Sea coast countries. This is mostly down to high ANE and a relative drop in ENF.

[alan]

Am seriously not a fan of Moffat and his populist theories that seem to tap into discredited legends. The Milesian thing of course couldnt fail to be partly correct as it covers Scythia to Iberia which is basically the whole length of Europe. The Scythia link is of course related to a Latin historians linking it with Scotti - itself a term that was appears to be a Roman invention of the early 4th centuries AD.

[alan]

As a total aside, it is interesting that the term Scotti first appears in Nomina Provinciarum Omnium (Names of All the Provinces), which dates to about A.D. 312. This is a short list of the names and provinces of the Roman Empire. At the end of this list is a brief list of tribes deemed to be a growing threat to the Empire, which included the Scoti.

Its never been satisfactorily explain in either Latin or Gaelic. I personally think the nickname was probably given by the legions protecting the west coast of Britain at the time of its appearance. It would be interesting to look at the ethnic composition of those legions to see if it came from another language.

Also I wouldnt rule out the possibility that the same really was some sort of insult nickname comparing the Irish raiders to Scythians by some Roman legionnaires. Perhaps it was a lazy pejorative for barbarians the Britons found particularly nasty. The Bible includes a single reference to Scythians in Colossians 3:11, immediately after mentioning barbarians, possibly as an extreme example of a barbarian.

[avalon]

If they are tying Beaker folks to the first farmers or somehow mixing a description of both into the same timeframe, that's a bit "loosey-goosey", similar to how politicians can speak. This kind of cloudy speech allows one to later claim that one's self was right no matter what the reality.

I agree. I get the impression that BritainsDNA are trying to generate popular interest in DNA testing and so we have seen some fairly outlandish claims in the media. I know that Debbie Kennett has referred to this as "genetic astrology."

By the way, for people interested, this program will soon be on the S4C website and I am sure they will have English subtitles.