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Thread: New branch under M458

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Why is it that everyone is gung ho in classifying all R1a other than Z93 as Slavic then?
    Many people prefer a simple explanation--even when some of the fact don't support it. Just today, a project member who has also tested with 23andMe told me that 23andMe associates the entire R1a1a haplogroup with Ashkenazi Jews! This is ridiculous, of course. I certainly hope that this is merely a misunderstanding.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Many people prefer a simple explanation--even when some of the fact don't support it. Just today, a project member who has also tested with 23andMe told me that 23andMe associates the entire R1a1a haplogroup with Ashkenazi Jews! This is ridiculous, of course. I certainly hope that this is merely a misunderstanding.
    Not the entire halpogroup. Though I recall in an earlier version, 23 and me classified it as Slavic blanketly as well. The new version just says its common in Ashkenazi Jews, though associating it with them only is silly. So I think there is some considerable misunderstandings from the business side of it, that is sadly misinforming many people.
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  4. #23
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    I tend to deprecate anyone who argues for M458's origin east of the eastern boundary of interwar Poland. M458 is the minority R1a clade, save for West Slavs, in the Slavic family of peoples. Of the two major clades, L260 is the most regular of them with an even distribution, again primarily of West Slavs. Of L1029, YP263 is the most normal distribution-wise, being primarily Polish, other West Slav, and in Germany. YP417 I connect to the Antes confederation, due to its presence in East Slavs and also Bulgaria. And then we have YP444, the most far-flung of the clades and the one I'm descended from. Looking at a Google map of the different L1029 clades, the easternmost YP444 is in north-central Poland. There are YP444 examples in more Germanic countries than Slavic. Given that M458 underwent a population bottleneck, and was most likely decimated/dispersed by the Goths/other East Germanic tribes in what is now Poland during the early days of the Roman Empire, I argue for a 'broad homeland' of M458 at the start of the Slavic expansions, and, indeed, some may have been assimilated into Germanic tribes prior to the Slavic expansion.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I tend to deprecate anyone who argues for M458's origin east of the eastern boundary of interwar Poland. M458 is the minority R1a clade, save for West Slavs, in the Slavic family of peoples. Of the two major clades, L260 is the most regular of them with an even distribution, again primarily of West Slavs. Of L1029, YP263 is the most normal distribution-wise, being primarily Polish, other West Slav, and in Germany. YP417 I connect to the Antes confederation, due to its presence in East Slavs and also Bulgaria. And then we have YP444, the most far-flung of the clades and the one I'm descended from. Looking at a Google map of the different L1029 clades, the easternmost YP444 is in north-central Poland. There are YP444 examples in more Germanic countries than Slavic. Given that M458 underwent a population bottleneck, and was most likely decimated/dispersed by the Goths/other East Germanic tribes in what is now Poland during the early days of the Roman Empire, I argue for a 'broad homeland' of M458 at the start of the Slavic expansions, and, indeed, some may have been assimilated into Germanic tribes prior to the Slavic expansion.
    L1029(our line in specific) formed 3100ypb. Or 1100BC. Assuming as some surmise its origin between the Elbe and Oder, it most certainly spilled over east and west. In this scenario. Most of L1029 would have faced extermination, as the common ancestor is 2100ypb(100BC). Perhaps most were killed off with the expansion of the Huns/Avars westward? The Bulgars were in the upper Volga before descended south, and then southwest into the Balkans. Some Theorize M458 originated from between the Volga and Vistula. If this scenario is true, then the Bulgars would have also possessed it. It is all very complicating as we have absolutely no ancient DNA for M458 going from 500AD and earlier. Hell the only M458 samples we have are from 1100AD. This doesn't tell us much, nor does the stubborn attitude of those who speak of M458 with absolutes as if there are a plethora of samples.

    I have to disagree on one thing though. YP263 is only 10 percent of Polish M458. Go over to Vaydas blog, it has an extensive breakdown with the most up to date data as of January. It does not include my founder effect though. My Albanian founder cluster has been added to the investigational tree on ISOGG. http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/

    Assuming L1029 for instance was in Central Europe already, then Baltics/East Germanics Would have already carried it. In all likelihood though, after its major population drop for whatever reason, it spread again predominantly as a result of Slavic migrations. Slavs did after all assimilate many peoples, some of which were not forceful but an advantage to being under the heal of Rome. So its likely(in my theory anyways) that L1029 was Either Lusatian originally and or Proto-Baltic, and was absorbed by both East Germanics, and Slavs at different junctions in time.

    The Saxons for instance had trade with the Balts. It is definitely possible some Baltic merchants or even soldiers moved with them westward, explaining how L1029 could have made it to the British Isles. There are also Polabian Slavic Pirates whom moved with the Heathen Army. However, they should be showing up predominantly L260, of which none has been found in the British Isles.

    It will be problematic considering our line practiced cremation. This could make finding intact remains quite hard. Could explain why the only remains to date are from the Christian era when such a practice was abandoned. There is still possibility it will eventually show up somewhere.

    YP263 has been found in the North/South Caucasus as well, among traditonally Turkic, and Kavkaz tribes. My theory is that some branched of L1029(at least in the Balkans) is Avars/Bulgars. Though different, some still believe the Avars are connected to the Caucasus Avars. Avars ruled Central Europe for a time. It is almost impossible to believe they left little to know genetic mark there. Besides They were heavily admixed with Europeans prior to entering the Balkans.

    L1029 is also the least common in the Balkans outside Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians, and Northern Greeks. Most falls into Z280/I2a-Din which are the most typical of Slavic speaking populations outside of Western Slavs(whom are predominantly L260 to begin with=).
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  7. #25
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    It has been 3 1/2 years since I started this thread and much has been discovered since then. M458 and its subclades have been developed into a full tree. At YFull most of those who have indicated some nation of ancestry list Poland, although M458 and its branches are present from China to Britain, from Sweden to Italy. Of course, some of this movement could be from men who migrated long after the formation of their clade. Reviewing the subclades of L1029 seems to give credence that L1029 was still in the homeland area, before the Slavic migration. Many argue this is somewhere in east central Europe, often referring to Polesie. I also am intrigued by Herodotus' Scythian Plowmen and Neuri. We know that, linguistically, the Balto-Slavic language was once one.

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I tend to deprecate anyone who argues for M458's origin east of the eastern boundary of interwar Poland. M458 is the minority R1a clade, save for West Slavs, in the Slavic family of peoples. (...)
    Neither was the Proto-Slavic homeland located to the east of the eastern boundary of interwar Poland, though.

    According to the mainstream theory, Early Slavic ancestors of Russians expanded into Russia from the west.

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  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Neither was the Proto-Slavic homeland located to the east of the eastern boundary of interwar Poland, though.

    According to the mainstream theory, Early Slavic ancestors of Russians expanded into Russia from the west.
    Point still stands. Theres no ADNA. Like the webs of a spider. Argument has a flimsy foundation. Whilst most probably Proto-Slavic, its not definite. Nor is the sentiment that it didnt expand with others via assimilation. You simply cannot know that. The claim of which resting on no evidence, is absolutely unscientific. Hence, why geneticists and these companies don't engage in these theoretical discussions that you and many seem to take as gospel truth.
    Last edited by Dibran; 10-12-2018 at 12:28 PM.
    Known Ancestry: Albanian
    23andme results: 94% Balkan, 0.9% Italian, 0.8% Middle Eastern, 2.2% broadly southern European, 0.3 British & Irish, 0.3% Japanese, 0.5% unassigned
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    MyAncientOrigins: 62% Farmer, 24% Hunter Gatherer, 14% Metal Age Invader
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    WeGene: 99.5% Balkan, 0.5% unassigned
    GenePlaza: 92.7% East Mediterranean, 5.2% Southwestern European, 1.5% Ambiguous
    DNA.LAND: 95% Balkan, 5% Sardinian

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