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    New branch under M458

    From Łukasz Lubicz Łapiński at the R1a-M458 facebook page:
    "...and here we have "Revolution" result !!!!
    We were waiting for another Y2395* result, and after BIG Y sequencing we've got .... early split of M458 branch.
    Brother clade of M458 is splitting 2-3 SNPs earlier!!!"

    y.dna.chart_1.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    From Łukasz Lubicz Łapiński at the R1a-M458 facebook page:
    "...and here we have "Revolution" result !!!!
    We were waiting for another Y2395* result, and after BIG Y sequencing we've got .... early split of M458 branch.
    Brother clade of M458 is splitting 2-3 SNPs earlier!!!"

    y.dna.chart_1.jpg
    I cannot find these message there (maybe one needs a Facebook account to read it).
    But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
    This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandelboy View Post
    I cannot find these message there (maybe one needs a Facebook account to read it).
    But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
    This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.
    I read about that a while back. If true that would indeed be a surprise. Almost everybody would have had M458 and Z280 oth originate closer to each other in Eastern Corded Ware, with closer linguistic connections and more shared SNP's.

    Also what do you think of the rare M458 branches that have been found in the Caucasus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandelboy View Post
    I cannot find these message there (maybe one needs a Facebook account to read it).
    But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
    This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.
    The group is private. You have to join.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandelboy View Post
    But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
    This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.
    No, that's not what he means. Kit 44591 was expected (by Łukasz, not by me) to be Y2395+ . Instead, he turned out to be PF6161+ PF7525+ M458- . In other words, he splits the M458 level into the older PF6161 and the younger M458.

    Thus, R1a-PF6161* is Polish, and R1a-M458* is also Polish. Early offshoots of CTS11962 and L260 (from before their primary expansion period) also appear to be mostly Polish, Czech, or Slovak.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 03-01-2015 at 11:42 PM.

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    Thanks for the clarification. From this cited sentence it was not clear that the person was just assumed to be Y2395+.

    Regarding the M458/Z280/Z284 node:
    At
    http://evolbio.ut.ee/chrY/
    the vcf files of the following participants may be interesting to compare with:
    GS000035455 Z284+ YP1166+ YP1167+
    GS000035474 Z284+ Z287+
    GS000035500 M458+ L1029+
    and anyone of the many Z280+ examples:e.g.
    GS000035471 Z280+ CTS3402+ L366+ YP346+ Y347+
    GS000035487 Z280+ CTS3402+ Y33+ Y2902+
    GS000035492 Z280+ CTS3402+ Y237+
    GS000018431 Z280+ CTS3402+ YP554+
    GS000035490 Z280+ Z92+ Y4459+

    I was able to look only for known SNP

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    I'm not sure what Lukasz is trying to say there. Can anyone give some more details?

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    What do you think this says about M458 (as well as this new branch) when it comes to its origins? As most of you know, many have speculated M458 originated in Poland or its immediate environs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    What do you think this says about M458 (as well as this new branch) when it comes to its origins? As most of you know, many have speculated M458 originated in Poland or its immediate environs.
    I think it was more easterly than Z280 in the past and possibly less important. It was one of a Corded Ware lineages and took part in cultures that evolved from Corded Ware - especially Trzciniec Culture.



    I think that Z280 was present (and dominant?) in most zones of Trzciniec but pre-M458 and early M548's were encompassing mostly Eastern Trzciniec and possibly Komarov. And that's how some part of old M458 clades could've ended in the Caucasus (modern population - Kara-Nogays from Dagestan, mostly) - it's possibly a result of some contacts with an early nomads, non-Turkic obviously.

    Some time after Western Trzciniec was transformed into a Lusatian Culture under unfluences of proto-Celts(?), it was dispersed by something disastrous and replaced mostly with Germanic speakers. Also other zones of Trzciniec horizon weren't spared, that's why not so much M458 lines remained, let alone pre-M458 ones. Shortly after, population started rebuilding process and two lines under M458, CTS11962 and L260 were particularly successful. They expanded, as a Slavs, from 6th century onwards, when being too numerous to find a place in a homeland.

    That's my scenario. I hope it will be proven sometimes, to one degree or another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artmar View Post
    I think it was more easterly than Z280 in the past and possibly less important. It was one of a Corded Ware lineages and took part in cultures that evolved from Corded Ware - especially Trzciniec Culture.



    I think that Z280 was present (and dominant?) in most zones of Trzciniec but pre-M458 and early M548's were encompassing mostly Eastern Trzciniec and possibly Komarov. And that's how some part of old M458 clades could've ended in the Caucasus (modern population - Kara-Nogays from Dagestan, mostly) - it's possibly a result of some contacts with an early nomads, non-Turkic obviously.

    Some time after Western Trzciniec was transformed into a Lusatian Culture under unfluences of proto-Celts(?), it was dispersed by something disastrous and replaced mostly with Germanic speakers. Also other zones of Trzciniec horizon weren't spared, that's why not so much M458 lines remained, let alone pre-M458 ones. Shortly after, population started rebuilding process and two lines under M458, CTS11962 and L260 were particularly successful. They expanded, as a Slavs, from 6th century onwards, when being too numerous to find a place in a homeland.

    That's my scenario. I hope it will be proven sometimes, to one degree or another.
    I also think that M458 was rather not present in what is today Poland before Slavic expansion in early medieval times. But it is interesting why M458 is so popular among West Slavs and not so much popular among East Slavs (although quite probably M458 comes from areas which are East Slavic now). It is possible that M458 was present in proto-Slavic population (as some lineages under Z280 - I think that Z92 could be not present among early Slavs at all because it is not so popular among West and South Slavs - but CTS1211 or at least some of its subclades (especially CTS3402) may be purely Slavic in origin and absent among Balts during expansion of early Slavs, but I do not exclude the possibility of presence of some CTS3402 among Balts). I think that M458 (especially two most popular subclades of it - CTS11962 and L260) was purely Slavic haplogroup in early medieval times. Maybe M458 comes from Kiev culture? I think that I-CTS10228 (I2-Din) also comes from early Slavs, although it is not so popular among Lechitic Slavs.

    I think that ALL of L1029 comes from Slavic expansion. It is a young haplogroup (TMRCA about 2200 years, similar to TMRCA of I-CTS10228) and it correlates well with Slavic expansion. R1a-L1029 expanded suddenly about 2200 years ago. L260 has two branches - YP1337 which is quite pan-Slavic (probably it is quite popular in Czech Republic, but not so popular in Poland, where YP256 dominates among L260) and "Lechitic" YP256 (most of which is YP254+, which has TMRCA of about 2000 years). It is interesting why YP254 is so concentrated in Poland, unlike L1029, which is "pan-Slavic".
    Last edited by lyakh; 03-15-2017 at 12:35 AM.

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