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Thread: New branch under M458

  1. #1
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    New branch under M458

    From Łukasz Lubicz Łapiński at the R1a-M458 facebook page:
    "...and here we have "Revolution" result !!!!
    We were waiting for another Y2395* result, and after BIG Y sequencing we've got .... early split of M458 branch.
    Brother clade of M458 is splitting 2-3 SNPs earlier!!!"

    y.dna.chart_1.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    From Łukasz Lubicz Łapiński at the R1a-M458 facebook page:
    "...and here we have "Revolution" result !!!!
    We were waiting for another Y2395* result, and after BIG Y sequencing we've got .... early split of M458 branch.
    Brother clade of M458 is splitting 2-3 SNPs earlier!!!"

    y.dna.chart_1.jpg
    I cannot find these message there (maybe one needs a Facebook account to read it).
    But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
    This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandelboy View Post
    I cannot find these message there (maybe one needs a Facebook account to read it).
    But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
    This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.
    I read about that a while back. If true that would indeed be a surprise. Almost everybody would have had M458 and Z280 oth originate closer to each other in Eastern Corded Ware, with closer linguistic connections and more shared SNP's.

    Also what do you think of the rare M458 branches that have been found in the Caucasus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandelboy View Post
    I cannot find these message there (maybe one needs a Facebook account to read it).
    But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
    This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.
    The group is private. You have to join.

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    I'm not sure what Lukasz is trying to say there. Can anyone give some more details?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandelboy View Post
    But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
    This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.
    No, that's not what he means. Kit 44591 was expected (by Łukasz, not by me) to be Y2395+ . Instead, he turned out to be PF6161+ PF7525+ M458- . In other words, he splits the M458 level into the older PF6161 and the younger M458.

    Thus, R1a-PF6161* is Polish, and R1a-M458* is also Polish. Early offshoots of CTS11962 and L260 (from before their primary expansion period) also appear to be mostly Polish, Czech, or Slovak.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 03-01-2015 at 11:42 PM.

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    Thanks for the clarification. From this cited sentence it was not clear that the person was just assumed to be Y2395+.

    Regarding the M458/Z280/Z284 node:
    At
    http://evolbio.ut.ee/chrY/
    the vcf files of the following participants may be interesting to compare with:
    GS000035455 Z284+ YP1166+ YP1167+
    GS000035474 Z284+ Z287+
    GS000035500 M458+ L1029+
    and anyone of the many Z280+ examples:e.g.
    GS000035471 Z280+ CTS3402+ L366+ YP346+ Y347+
    GS000035487 Z280+ CTS3402+ Y33+ Y2902+
    GS000035492 Z280+ CTS3402+ Y237+
    GS000018431 Z280+ CTS3402+ YP554+
    GS000035490 Z280+ Z92+ Y4459+

    I was able to look only for known SNP

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    What do you think this says about M458 (as well as this new branch) when it comes to its origins? As most of you know, many have speculated M458 originated in Poland or its immediate environs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    What do you think this says about M458 (as well as this new branch) when it comes to its origins? As most of you know, many have speculated M458 originated in Poland or its immediate environs.
    I think it was more easterly than Z280 in the past and possibly less important. It was one of a Corded Ware lineages and took part in cultures that evolved from Corded Ware - especially Trzciniec Culture.



    I think that Z280 was present (and dominant?) in most zones of Trzciniec but pre-M458 and early M548's were encompassing mostly Eastern Trzciniec and possibly Komarov. And that's how some part of old M458 clades could've ended in the Caucasus (modern population - Kara-Nogays from Dagestan, mostly) - it's possibly a result of some contacts with an early nomads, non-Turkic obviously.

    Some time after Western Trzciniec was transformed into a Lusatian Culture under unfluences of proto-Celts(?), it was dispersed by something disastrous and replaced mostly with Germanic speakers. Also other zones of Trzciniec horizon weren't spared, that's why not so much M458 lines remained, let alone pre-M458 ones. Shortly after, population started rebuilding process and two lines under M458, CTS11962 and L260 were particularly successful. They expanded, as a Slavs, from 6th century onwards, when being too numerous to find a place in a homeland.

    That's my scenario. I hope it will be proven sometimes, to one degree or another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    As most of you know, many have speculated M458 originated in Poland or its immediate environs.
    (Slight exaggeration for emphasis)
    But that is not the "conventional wisdom," according to one poster in this forum. She asserts, as if proven fact, the Total Population Replacement hypothesis: That Poland was entirely Germanic-speaking until the 5th century, when all those Germanics simply loaded up the wagons and moved west or southwest, leaving all of Poland "empty." A small Slavic tribe near Kyiv, she continues, then multiplied like rabbits, occupying half a continent (including Poland) within a single century. Thus, according to her hypothesis, Poland had zero R1a-M458 (or R1a-Z280 or I2a-CTS5966 ?) until the 5th century.

    Again, this is a slight--but only slight--exaggeration of the poster's Total Population Replacement hypothesis, which she claims to be the "scientific consensus." Here is a typical example of her views: "What is now Poland was virtually empty when the Slavs arrived, apart from Pomerania." In the same post, she declares in advance that DNA evidence will not sway her views: "The Y-DNA phylogeny in present-day Poles cannot tell us when their ancestors arrived in Poland."

    At one point, she did concede that a few original denizens might have survived the brutal onslaught from (what is now) Kyiv. She failed to explain how or why this little band of Slavs, docile pasturers and farmers for millenia, suddenly became an army of ferocious continent-conquering warriors.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 03-02-2015 at 03:10 PM.

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