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Thread: R1b-Z2109* R1b>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109* (CTS7822/Z2110-)

  1. #1
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    R1b-Z2109* R1b>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109* (CTS7822/Z2110-)

    The R1b-Z2109* was recently discovered by the R1b1a2(P312- U106-) DNA Project(aka ht35 Project) team. R1b-Z2109* haplotypes are Z2103+ or Z2105+ and CTS7822/Z2110-, CTS7763-, L277.1- L584-.
    Recent analysis of NGS testing shows at least three lines that are seperated by many SNPs.
    One line consists of two gentlemen that are Burzyan Bashkir. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burzyansky_District
    The second line is a gentlemen who is Gujarati Indian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarati_people
    The third line consists of a gentlemen with family ties to Pol'any Slovakia that shares several markers with myself with ties to Darmstadt Germany.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebi%C5%A1ov_District en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmstadt-Dieburg
    That's not a lot of information for describing R1b-Z2109, no worries, all haplogroups start out that way. Presently, there is another potential R1b-Z2109 haplotype awaiting Big Y results and another testing SNP M64 to check it's viability as a marker.



    Code:
    YFULL
    R-Z2108Z2109/CTS1843 * Z2108formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 6200 ybp
    
        R-Z2108*
            id:NA20866GIH
            id:YF02743DEU [DE-HE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Arsen View Post
    In Burzyansky district lives Bashkirs from the two different tribes: Burzyan (>80% R1b) and Kypsak (they are R1a-Z2125 and N).
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Joe B For This Useful Post:

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  3. #2
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    Thank you, Joe B,

    Most of Burzyans-Bashkirs lives in Baymaksky District and Sibay town today.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baymaksky_District
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibay

    For example, the Burzyan-Tungaur Canton in 1917-1922 (gray):
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91...D0%B5_1919.png

    The map of Bashkirs tribes (Boryen):
    http://f3.s.qip.ru/dD49ekRT.jpg

    Irandek mountains and Lake Talkas (Baymaksky District):
    http://images.esosedi.ru/vid_na_oz_t...&z=15&mt=1&v=1

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  5. #3
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    Yes, they just pushed my Big Y test AGAIN. I am beside myself. For what I paid for this test, the least they could do is knock off a few dollars. Or maybe even just scrap the test altogether and let me test a few SNP for 99 bucks.

  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    The result is back. The Iraqi man is derived for Z2109. Any further testing suggestions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    I suppose CTS3937 would be the next step?
    Quote Originally Posted by rick_r View Post
    How about M64.1? I'd be interested in seeing if he fits in with myself and JoeB, FWIW.
    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    There is also the Bashkir/Indian branch M4170 under Z2109 , which looks more likely with an Iraqi.
    Please welcome the gentleman to the R1b-Z2109 part of the haplotree. smal agrees with eastara that he may be closer to the Burzyans-Bashkirs (see Arsen's post above) or the Gujarati Indian from the KGP project. I agree with smal that it's hard to say without going to the Big Y or other NGS testing. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/ F.Y.I. YFULL is using R-Z2108 instead of R-Z2109 for the branch.

    He's not likely CTS3937+ or M64+. It's R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2109>CTS3937>M64 so if you want to stay with single SNP test bracketing CTS3937 would be next.
    Z2109_subclades_05-22-2015.jpg
    Last edited by Joe B; 05-22-2015 at 04:28 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Please welcome the gentleman to the R1b-Z2109 part of the haplotree. smal agrees with eastara that he may be closer to the Burzyans-Bashkirs (see Arsen's post above) or the Gujarati Indian from KGP project. I agree with smal that it's hard to say without going to the Big Y or other NGS testing. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/ F.Y.I. YFULL is using R-Z2108 instead of R-Z2109 for the branch.

    He's not likely CTS3937+ or M64+. It's R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2109>CTS3937>M64 so if you want to stay with single SNP test bracketing CTS3937 would be next..
    That is correct, JoeB, sorry for jumping the gun. However, IF he is 64.1, could be on the right track for origin theory.

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    This has been a rather busy week for the R1b-Z2109 part of the haplotree.

    305697 (Rose) M64 test results came back positive and moved to subgroup _b5a. R1b-Z2109/CTS1843>CTS3937>M64+. FTDNA did assign the R-M64 haplogroup label to Rose too.

    As mentioned in a previous post, the Southern Iraq, Arab gentleman has Sanger sequencing tested Z2109+/CTS7822/Z2110- and has been placed in subgroup _b6. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2109/CTS1843+

    26483 (Campbell) Big Y results just came in. Looks like he is CTS3937+, M64- from the initial look at the FTDNA data and has been placed in subgroup _b5. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2109/CTS1843+ CTS3937+.

    Thank you to everybody for testing.Z2109_subclades_05-22-2015.jpg
    Last edited by Joe B; 05-22-2015 at 04:26 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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  12. #7
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    Hungary Iceland Canada Slovakia
    So what we have right now. Ancestor for me (Hungarian Slovakian) in Iraq, cousin (Campbell) for me in the UK, descendant branches in Germany (Bork) Scotland (Robbins Rose).

    *** Warning - Wild speculation ahead

    This picture is very weird. Joe and I have been separated (I'm now his grandmother!) but both end up with close ties to the Scots! Remember ftdna wanted to put me in L513 which has strong Argyll roots which doesn't make any sense considering where I am now but has such stickiness!!.

    And I grew up in Wainfleet (actually Morgan's Point) not too far from where Rick Robbins lives in Wellandport... which is a huge synchronicity

    It seems that clan Campbell has ties to clan Drummond in Argyll which is purportedly the clan which was founded by the illegitimate Gyorgy of the Arpad dynasty in 1065 and has Stewart descendants. I know Tibor Feher was recently disappointed by some testing to link the Arpad with the Drummond. I'm going to do some more digging on this connection as I heard Arpad was R1b1b but we've changed the tree so fast that needs to be validated.

    Gosh I feel like a nutter!

    I just realized the Tower of Babel is in Iraq. My grandmother used to tell me (here's the nutter part) that our people (the Magyar) came from Babylon.

    I myself have been surmising (aka speculating wildly) that since the R1b line was Yamanya that they would have dispersed during the great flood of the Black Sea (Pittman-Ryan theory) 7500 BC and some went south across Anatolia. It just seems so implausible that I could be directly connected to all this.....

    So it appears we all need to roll up our sleeves and find more people to test so we can fill in the blanks (and be very patient) - of course we could all be disappointed and turn out to be serfs! But there is no doubt we are well travelled!

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to nancy For This Useful Post:

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  14. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nancy View Post
    So what we have right now. Ancestor for me (Hungarian Slovakian) in Iraq, cousin (Campbell) for me in the UK, descendant branches in Germany (Bork) Scotland (Robbins Rose).

    *** Warning - Wild speculation ahead

    This picture is very weird. Joe and I have been separated (I'm now his grandmother!) but both end up with close ties to the Scots! Remember ftdna wanted to put me in L513 which has strong Argyll roots which doesn't make any sense considering where I am now but has such stickiness!!.

    And I grew up in Wainfleet (actually Morgan's Point) not too far from where Rick Robbins lives in Wellandport... which is a huge synchronicity

    It seems that clan Campbell has ties to clan Drummond in Argyll which is purportedly the clan which was founded by the illegitimate Gyorgy of the Arpad dynasty in 1065 and has Stewart descendants. I know Tibor Feher was recently disappointed by some testing to link the Arpad with the Drummond. I'm going to do some more digging on this connection as I heard Arpad was R1b1b but we've changed the tree so fast that needs to be validated.

    Gosh I feel like a nutter!

    I just realized the Tower of Babel is in Iraq. My grandmother used to tell me (here's the nutter part) that our people (the Magyar) came from Babylon.

    I myself have been surmising (aka speculating wildly) that since the R1b line was Yamanya that they would have dispersed during the great flood of the Black Sea (Pittman-Ryan theory) 7500 BC and some went south across Anatolia. It just seems so implausible that I could be directly connected to all this.....

    So it appears we all need to roll up our sleeves and find more people to test so we can fill in the blanks (and be very patient) - of course we could all be disappointed and turn out to be serfs! But there is no doubt we are well travelled!
    Thank you for adding some fun color to this part of the tree! There are plenty of theories and old stories out there that are being challenged by phylogeny. Some may even turn out to be true. I suspect there were plenty of serfs in our branch, some more recent that others.
    Based on these most recent findings we shouldn't be bashful about asking people to test SNPs Z2109/CTS1843, CTS3937 and M64. Better yet, take the Big Y or Full Genomes next generation sequencing (NGS) test.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

  15. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    This has been a rather busy week for the R1b-Z2109 part of the haplotree.

    305697 (Rose) M64 test results came back positive and moved to subgroup _b5a. R1b-Z2109/CTS1843>CTS3937>M64+. FTDNA did assign the R-M64 haplogroup label to Rose too.

    As mentioned in a previous post, the Southern Iraq, Arab gentleman has Sanger sequencing tested Z2109+/CTS7822/Z2110- and has been placed in subgroup _b6. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2109/CTS1843+

    26483 (Campbell) Big Y results just came in. Looks like he is CTS3937+, M64- from the initial look at the FTDNA data and has been placed in subgroup _b5. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2109/CTS1843+ CTS3937+.

    Thank you to everybody for testing.Z2109_subclades_05-22-2015.jpg
    Hmm. How does HE get the M64? That's a little bit odd, isn't it?

  16. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nancy View Post
    So what we have right now. Ancestor for me (Hungarian Slovakian) in Iraq, cousin (Campbell) for me in the UK, descendant branches in Germany (Bork) Scotland (Robbins Rose).

    *** Warning - Wild speculation ahead

    This picture is very weird. Joe and I have been separated (I'm now his grandmother!) but both end up with close ties to the Scots! Remember ftdna wanted to put me in L513 which has strong Argyll roots which doesn't make any sense considering where I am now but has such stickiness!!.

    And I grew up in Wainfleet (actually Morgan's Point) not too far from where Rick Robbins lives in Wellandport... which is a huge synchronicity

    It seems that clan Campbell has ties to clan Drummond in Argyll which is purportedly the clan which was founded by the illegitimate Gyorgy of the Arpad dynasty in 1065 and has Stewart descendants. I know Tibor Feher was recently disappointed by some testing to link the Arpad with the Drummond. I'm going to do some more digging on this connection as I heard Arpad was R1b1b but we've changed the tree so fast that needs to be validated.

    Gosh I feel like a nutter!

    I just realized the Tower of Babel is in Iraq. My grandmother used to tell me (here's the nutter part) that our people (the Magyar) came from Babylon.

    I myself have been surmising (aka speculating wildly) that since the R1b line was Yamanya that they would have dispersed during the great flood of the Black Sea (Pittman-Ryan theory) 7500 BC and some went south across Anatolia. It just seems so implausible that I could be directly connected to all this.....

    So it appears we all need to roll up our sleeves and find more people to test so we can fill in the blanks (and be very patient) - of course we could all be disappointed and turn out to be serfs! But there is no doubt we are well travelled!
    Nancy, I am not living in Wellandport, but I wish I could, at least for a vacation or two, nice area. My direct family was in the area from around 1795 till the 1880's. Others in the immediate area still are probably related to me, somehow. I have a whole passel of potential testable people, just can't see the point of testing those that are RELATED, through name and genealogy. Need to find others that are divergent to address the placement and time frame of the group. I am really happy that more are joining the group of Z2109 folks.

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