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Thread: R1b-Z2109* R1b>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109* (CTS7822/Z2110-)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    It's just so painful to watch them try to figure it out the correct phylogenetic order. Hopefully, in the near future, communications between FTDNA and the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project administrators will improve so we can correct their haplotree to benefit their customers. Correcting phylogenetic errors like what is occurring with SNPs Z2109 and Z2110/CTS7822 would be a simple fix with proper communication.
    Thanks Joe. The confusion caused among the rank-n-file (myself included) can be upsetting. One would think that the fact that my tree shows positive results on a branch that descends from a negative result SNP would be a clue to them that something is not quite right, phylogenetically speaking. Still, I am thankful that they are offering the Backbone tests again. I will be patient and wait for them to catch up. Thanks again. -geo
    M173+, M269+, M343+, M207+, P25+, M269+, Z2103+, P107-, U106-, U152-, U198-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, Z2110/CTS7822+, CTS9219-

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_r View Post
    Just was perusing the listserv of the Scottish Prisoners of War, and ran across a lively discussion that was about the recent recovery of the skeletons of prisoners that died at the battle of Dunbar. Since my ancestor allegedly was a prisoner of the battle next year at Worcester, I think that the findings of Dunbar skeletons are relevant to this subject.

    My L23 z2109 YDNA do not fit in with the general Scot ancestry profile. So, I can only assume possible scenarios in which that the L23 could have arrived in Scotland, or England in general. One scenario presented itself with the info from this dig of the skeletons. 3 of the skeletons out of 23 were from what was considered Germany. From the report:



    So, in theory, that could be the introduction of the YDNA in the area, mercenaries of the Scottish army. Or, at a earlier instance.
    https://www.dur.ac.uk/archaeology/re...ns/acadpapers/
    It's almost like a continuation of the 30 Years War. A large number of Scots participated in that war and may have brought some friends back for the fight with Cromwell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotla...Years'_War
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_r View Post
    Just was perusing the listserv of the Scottish Prisoners of War, and ran across a lively discussion that was about the recent recovery of the skeletons of prisoners that died at the battle of Dunbar. Since my ancestor allegedly was a prisoner of the battle next year at Worcester, I think that the findings of Dunbar skeletons are relevant to this subject.

    My L23 z2109 YDNA do not fit in with the general Scot ancestry profile. So, I can only assume possible scenarios in which that the L23 could have arrived in Scotland, or England in general. One scenario presented itself with the info from this dig of the skeletons. 3 of the skeletons out of 23 were from what was considered Germany. From the report:



    So, in theory, that could be the introduction of the YDNA in the area, mercenaries of the Scottish army. Or, at a earlier instance.
    https://www.dur.ac.uk/archaeology/re...ns/acadpapers/

    I don't think these DNA tests have the ability to resolve ancestry to the degree that they can tell whether someone is from Northwest Europe as compared to Scotland.

    My direct paternal ancestor was also taken prisoner at the Battle of Dunbar and sent to New England as a laborer.

    The men who fought in the Battle of Dunbar were related to the nobility of lowland Scotland. The Scots did not believe in using mercenaries. It's doubtful that your ancestors are from "Germany" anytime in the last 500 years. If you're interested in the traditions of how Scotland rallied its armies, a good reference is the CD Harlaw, Scotland, 1411:

    http://www.amazon.com/Harlaw-Scotlan...1496989&sr=8-1

    You can also check to see if your last name, or a variant of it, is on the Ragman Rolls. The Battle of Dunbar was a battle fought in the lowlands, and most of its troops were drawn from lowlanders. The Ragman Rolls contains many of the common names of families from the Lowlands of Scotland.

    Anyway, regarding your DNA, I suspect that it may be quite Scottish, but just rare. One of the problems with these DNA tests is that when people have a result that doesn't match their known ancestry, they're told that they must be from "somewhere else". This then means that rare genetic ancestry for a particular place (in this case Scotland) is ignored, or not recorded.

    Best to you.
    Last edited by A_Skeptic; 09-06-2015 at 12:08 AM.

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  6. #24
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    Mine was from the later battle the next year, not Dunbar. It was proven, not by DNA, but other methods of environment, that the skeletons were from other countries. You may want to look at the study they did on those skeletons. There is this curious account of the Battle of Worcester's German Mercenary. You may find this interesting.

    http://jeromehandler.org/wp-content/...hteritz-70.pdf

    I, for one, am not really satisfied that the Z2109 SNP is native to Scotland.
    Last edited by rick_r; 09-07-2015 at 01:33 AM.

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     nancy (10-12-2015)

  8. #25
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    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    The R1b-Z2108,Z2109 is an interesting node with four branches estimated to be around 6100 years old by YFull. (R-Z2108 Z2109/CTS1843 * Z2108 formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp formed CI 95% 6900 <-> 5200 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 6900 <-> 5200 ybp)

    The R1b-KMS67 branch is of particular interest. A number of ancient samples from the Yamnaya and Poltavka cultures have been assigned to the R1b-KMS67 haplogroup. smal was kind enough to construct a R1b-KMS67 phylogenetic tree for the R1b-Basal Subclades project.

    KMS67.jpg

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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  10. #26
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    I'm beginning to suspect that the line R1b-GG400 is R1b- KMS-67

  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mis View Post
    I'm beginning to suspect that the line R1b-GG400 is R1b- KMS-67
    Quote Originally Posted by smal View Post
    I have an information from one of the authors of this abstract. GG400 is an equivalent of Z2103.
    GG400 precedes KMS67 and is defined as an eastern brother clade to R1b-L51.
    Last edited by Joe B; 10-24-2016 at 04:12 AM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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     Mis (10-23-2016),  palamede (11-05-2016)

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