Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 35

Thread: Can the R1a at Xiahoe really be Z93-?

  1. #1

    Can the R1a at Xiahoe really be Z93-?

    This isn't about the linguistic or cultural identity of those mummies but whether this sample can really belong to Z93- given the paucity of such lineages in Asia. This would suggest this lineage didn't survive at all. There is obviously a Z282* cluster in Asia but it is concentrated in West Asia and is a better fit for Cimmerian/Scythian incursions via the Caucasus. And if this Xiahoe R1a is Z93- what can it be? Some sort of Z645 (xZ283, xZ93)? Or a brother clade to CTS4385 and Z645? One thing is that Xiahoe is pretty east in the Tarim and this lineages might have been pushed quite east into China. Does any R1a-Z93- exist in China?

  2. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,681
    Sex
    Location
    New York
    Ethnicity
    South Asian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2-M241 (J-Y978*)
    mtDNA (M)
    M30b2a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a1-L657 (R-Y16494)
    mtDNA (P)
    M18a

    United States of America Canada
    Are you referring to a specific study or results about that place? Or just hypothetical scenarios?
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494*) (FTDNA Kit 311047) (YFull: YF68408), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29*) (FTDNA Kit 329181) (YFull: YF65256))

  3. #3
    Administrator
    Posts
    4,545
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    The Uyghurs would make good candidates for carriers of R1a-Z93- given their long-standing presence in the Tarim and the presumed incorporation of earlier Tocharian speakers into them. Given the location of Afanasievo, it's possible some R1a-Z93- would be picked up in Mongolia as well.

    Uyghurs haven't received much recent attention (there are a couple of Chinese studies from the late 00's which included them), opening up the possibility some of the R1a-M17 among them could be Z93-.

    I see no justification for finding Z93- anywhere outside of East-Central Asia if Xiaohe is indeed so.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-09-2015),  Megalophias (03-09-2015)

  5. #4
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    Are you referring to a specific study or results about that place? Or just hypothetical scenarios?
    The reference is to a response by Hui Zhou, in the online comments on the paper Chunxiang Li, Hongjie Li, Yinqiu Cui, Chengzhi Xie, Dawei Cai, Wenying Li, Victor H Mair, Zhi Xu, Quanchao Zhang, Idelisi Abuduresule, Li Jin, Hong Zhu and Hui Zhou, Evidence that a West-East admixed population lived in the Tarim Basin as early as the early Bronze Age, BMC Biology 2010, 8:15 : http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15/comments

    The response by Hui Zhou in full:

    Archaeological and anthropological investigations have helped to formulate two main theories to account for the origin of the populations in the Tarim Basin. The first, so-called “steppe hypothesis”, maintains that the earliest settlers may have been nomadic herders of the Afanasievo culture (ca. 3300-2000 B.C.), a primarily pastoralist culture distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions of the steppe north of the Tarim Basin. The second model, known as the “Bactrian oasis hypothesis”, it maintains that the first settlers were farmers of the Oxus civilization (ca. 2200-1500 B.C.) west of Xinjiang in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Turkmenistan. These contrasting models can be tested using DNA recovered from archaeological bones. Xiaohe cemetery contains the oldest and best-preserved mummies so far discovered in the Tarim Basin, possible those of the earliest people to settle the region. Genetic analysis of these mummies can provide data to elucidate the affinities of the earliest inhabitants.

    Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried Hg R1a1 in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M* in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belong to R1a1a-Z93 branch (our recently unpublished data) which mainly found in Asians. mtDNA Hgs H, K, C4 primarily distributed in northern Eurasians. Though H, K, C4 also presence in modern south Asian, they immigrated into South Asian recently from nearby populations, such as Near East , East Asia and Central Asia, and the frequency is obviously lower than that of northern Eurasian. Furthermore, all of the shared sequences of the Xiaohe haplotypes H and C4 were distributed in northern Eurasians. Haplotype 223-304 in Xiaohe people was shared by Indian. However, these sequences were attributed to Hg M25 in India, and in our study it was not Hg M25 by scanning the mtDNA code region. Therefore, our DNA results didn't supported Clyde Winters’s opinion but supported the “steppe hypothesis”. Moreover, the culture of Xiaohe is similar with the Afanasievo culture. Afanasievo culture was mainly distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions, and didn’t spread into India. This further maintains the “steppe hypothesis”.

    In addition, our data was misunderstand by Clyde Winters. Firstly, the human remains of the Xiaohe site have no relation with the Loulan mummy. The Xiaohe site and Loulan site are two different archaeological sites with 175km distances. Xiaohe site, radiocarbon dated ranging from 4000 to 3500 years before present, was a Bronze Age site, and Loulan site, dated to about 2000 years before present. Secondly, Hgs H and K are the mtDNA haplogroups not the Y chromosome haplogroups in our study. Thirdly, the origin of Xiaohe people in here means tracing the most recently common ancestor, and Africans were remote ancestor of modern people.
    Last edited by Jean M; 03-08-2015 at 07:32 PM.

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-09-2015),  DMXX (03-10-2015),  palamede (03-10-2015),  Tomenable (08-27-2015)

  7. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    The Uyghurs would make good candidates for carriers of R1a-Z93- given their long-standing presence in the Tarim and the presumed incorporation of earlier Tocharian speakers into them. Given the location of Afanasievo, it's possible some R1a-Z93- would be picked up in Mongolia as well.

    Uyghurs haven't received much recent attention (there are a couple of Chinese studies from the late 00's which included them), opening up the possibility some of the R1a-M17 among them could be Z93-.

    I see no justification for finding Z93- anywhere outside of East-Central Asia if Xiaohe is indeed so.
    What do you think this Z93- could be? I am surprised because we should have expected some to filter into Afghanistan and South Asia with the Kushans , who even if were Indo-Iranian speaking probably had some Tocharian speakers in their ranks as most Central Asian confederations incorporated the earlier inhabitants to some degree.

  8. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    189
    Sex
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-BY27799
    mtDNA (M)
    U4a1a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-YP1020*

    Poland
    When M198+ but Z93-, then maybe some kind of Z282*? We have a whole West Asian Z282* cluster made of Arabic, Armenian and possibly Kurdish people.

    None of them were tested by Big Y or other NGS product. I don't know whether it would connect them to some macro-branch or still make a Z282* on it's own - founding totally new branch parallel to Z280, PF6155 (former M458 macro-branch) and Y2395 (former Z284 macro-branch). In latter case, it would be be possible to name such branch after testing second Z282* person.
    Last edited by Artmar; 03-10-2015 at 12:31 PM.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Artmar For This Useful Post:

     Tomenable (08-27-2015)

  10. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,602
    Sex
    Location
    Calgary
    Ethnicity
    Anglo
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2-S2361 < L801
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2b(1)
    mtDNA (P)
    H3

    Canada
    Could also be some M417*, which does exist in Asia.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Megalophias For This Useful Post:

     Tomenable (08-27-2015)

  12. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    189
    Sex
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-BY27799
    mtDNA (M)
    U4a1a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-YP1020*

    Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Could also be some M417*, which does exist in Asia.
    I have never seen M417s who aren't either Z645 (Z283 and Z93) or CTS4385. Are you sure , that you've found M417* somewhere ?

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Artmar For This Useful Post:

     newtoboard (03-11-2015),  Tomenable (08-27-2015)

  14. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,602
    Sex
    Location
    Calgary
    Ethnicity
    Anglo
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2-S2361 < L801
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2b(1)
    mtDNA (P)
    H3

    Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Artmar View Post
    I have never seen M417s who aren't either Z645 (Z283 and Z93) or CTS4385. Are you sure , that you've found M417* somewhere ?
    No, I am referring to R1a-M417(xZ282, Z93) which could be CTS4385. But this Xiaohe aDNA is said only to be Z93-, so there is nothing to exclude it being CTS4385 either.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Megalophias For This Useful Post:

     Tomenable (08-27-2015)

  16. #10
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,006

    Underhill had a few M417* listed, but Z283, Z645, L664 and CTS4385 were not tested.

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450x5.xls
    Population Last defining Y-chr marker DYS19 D388 DYS389I DYS389b DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS461=A7.2 DYS385 a DYS385 b DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYS456 DYS458 DYS635 Y GATA H4

    Possible CTS4385
    Estonian M417 16 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 11 10 11 14 14 11 19 16 15 23 12
    Hungarian M417 15 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 12 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
    Kor, Iran M417 15 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 15 23 12
    Turk M417 15 12 12 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND


    Possible L664
    Dutch_Nort M417 15 7 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 19 15 15 24 13
    Dutch_SoE M417 16 10 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 19 16 15 24 11
    German_N M417 15 10 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 19 15 16 24 12
    Irish_North M417 15 10 14 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 19 15 15 24 12
    Norway M417 17 10 13 17 24 10 11 13 10 9 11 14 14 11 19 15 15 25 12

    Possible M417
    India (I) M417 15 12 14 17 24 11 11 13 10 10 14 14 14 11 20 17 15 23 12

    DYS385ab 11,14 seems to the modal for M17 and M417 but we some highly divergent types in India.
    Only 9/13 are ~modal:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0032546.s003

  17. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     Gravetto-Danubian (09-18-2016),  Megalophias (03-11-2015),  Tomenable (08-27-2015)

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •