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Thread: Help me to solve a family Mystery: My paternal line before my great grandfather.

  1. #161
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    Over the last few months I’ve been researching matches my father, his paternal half sister, and paternal half niece (daughter of another paternal half sister), share from Cornwall, England. Cornwall is of interest because my father has no known recent ancestors from this area.
    My father’s paternal grandmother’s line is from Wales and the border areas of England.
    My father’s paternal grandfather’s mother’s (PGFM) line is from Scotland (PGFM father’s line) and British India (PGFM mother’s line going back to the 1700s).

    So no known paternal ancestry from Cornwall which might mean that my paternal line mystery man (my father’s paternal great grandfather) had ancestors from Cornwall.

    Many Cornwall surnames are not found in the rest of England i.e. they are unusual. Which is helpful in my research. On ancestry.com I’ve identified many paternal line matches as being on my father’s paternal grandmother’s (PGM) side. This is often easy to do because my father has quite a few known 2nd and 3rd PGM cousins that have tested with ancestry.com.

    Then there are those paternal matches that don’t match any other PGM matches or the PGM matches’ matches, or any PGFM matches (my father has a couple of 3rd cousins on this line that have tested at ancestry.com).

    These are the ones I spend a lot of time on, building ancestry trees on them, hoping to find connections.

    I’ve now reached a point where I’m getting some good triangulation in Cornwall for the following ancestry.com paternal matches (R.S. S.S. S.G. and X.B.)
    1. R.S. matches my father (43cM), my paternal aunt (12cM), and my paternal 1st cousin (14cM)
    2. R.S. has a 2nd cousin S.S. who also matches my father (22cM).
    3. R.S and S.S both descend from Alfred Lelant (1883-1962) and Beatric Gaut.
    4. The above Alfred Lelant descends from a Wilmus Donithorne (1607-1697) via Wilmus’ son Richard Donithorne (1651-1701). Wilmus is the son of William Donithorne (b ~1575)
    5. Wilmus had another son William Donithorne (1639-1713)
    6. S.G. matches my father (9cM) and my paternal 1st cousin (7cM). S.G. descends from the above William Donithorne (1639-1713).
    7. X.B. matches my father (21cM), and paternal aunt (24cM). He descends from William Donithorne (b 1575) via son Nicholas Donithorne.

    So, I don’t know how, or how far back, but there is a good chance my paternal line mystery man has a Donithorne from Cornwall ancestor.

    All I have to do is find every male descendant who could have fathered a child in England in September 1892. That shouldn’t be too hard
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-23-2019 at 04:05 AM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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  3. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    ...

    íve now reached a point where Iím getting some good triangulation in Cornwall for the following ancestry.com paternal matches (R.S. S.S. S.G. and X.B.)
    1. R.S. matches my father (43cM), my paternal aunt (12cM), and my paternal 1st cousin (14cM)
    2. R.S. has a 2nd cousin S.S. who also matches my father (22cM).
    3. R.S and S.S both descend from Alfred Lelant (1883-1962) and Beatric Gaut.
    4. The above Alfred Lelant descends from a Wilmus Donithorne (1607-1697) via Wilmusí son Richard Donithorne (1651-1701). Wilmus is the son of William Donithorne (b ~1575)
    5. Wilmus had another son William Donithorne (1639-1713)
    6. S.G. matches my father (9cM) and my paternal 1st cousin (7cM). S.G. descends from the above William Donithorne (1639-1713).
    7. X.B. matches my father (21cM), and paternal aunt (24cM). He descends from William Donithorne (b 1575) via son Nicholas Donithorne.

    So, I donít know how, or how far back, but there is a good chance my paternal line mystery man has a Donithorne from Cornwall ancestor.

    All I have to do is find every male descendant who could have fathered a child in England in September 1892. That shouldnít be too hard
    I might be making progress.
    1. This Richard Donithorne in bold above had a daughter Christian Donithorne (b 1684) who married a David Edwards (b 1684).
    2. David Edwards and Christian had a son David Edwards Jr (b 1715), who had a son David Edwards III (b 1741)
    3. David Edwards III (b 1741) married a Christian Uren (b 1746)
    4. Christian Uren's parents were John Uren (1710-1792) and Jane Wherren (1714-1801)
    5. John Uren's father was Eustace Uren (b 1685)
    6. My father and my paternal aunt have a match (E.T.) who is a descendant of this Eustace Uren via his daughter Jane Uren (b 1739)
    7. Previously mentioned matches X.B. and S.G. also descends from John Uren (1710-1792)
    8. Another match to my father and my paternal aunt, (F.P.) descends from an ancestor of Eustace Uren (b 1685).

    Maybe I'm on to something. I dunno.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-23-2019 at 12:30 PM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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  5. #163
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    This shouldn't imply that it's defective, it's simply that I don't imagine that there is such interest among individuals here in Ireland and the UK. That may change as the general cost of these tests keeps on going down with new innovation.

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  7. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I might be making progress.
    1. This Richard Donithorne in bold above had a daughter Christian Donithorne (b 1684) who married a David Edwards (b 1684).
    2. David Edwards and Christian had a son David Edwards Jr (b 1715), who had a son David Edwards III (b 1741)
    3. David Edwards III (b 1741) married a Christian Uren (b 1746)
    4. Christian Uren's parents were John Uren (1710-1792) and Jane Wherren (1714-1801)
    5. John Uren's father was Eustace Uren (b 1685)
    6. My father and my paternal aunt have a match (E.T.) who is a descendant of this Eustace Uren via his daughter Jane Uren (b 1739)
    7. Previously mentioned matches X.B. and S.G. also descends from John Uren (1710-1792)
    8. Another match to my father and my paternal aunt, (F.P.) descends from an ancestor of Eustace Uren (b 1685).

    Maybe I'm on to something. I dunno.
    Such an interesting quest, MitchellSince1893! And I wish you all the luck in the world!

    I had a similar occurrence and suppose I could be called SmithSince1888. My paternal grandfather was born illegitimate in 1888 and given his mother's maiden surname Smith. My grandfather kept this a taboo subject, it was not to be discussed with his children, they were Smiths and that was that. Fortunately my DNA test five years ago at AncestryDNA turned up a lot of matches that shone a light on my great grandmother's wealthy boss Irvin McIver. More autosomal matches with that surname were turned up at 23andMe and FTDNA and when I did Y111 STR testing then the Big Y, there was a McIver sharing my terminal SNP. Of course I was incredibly lucky and hope that big fish you're looking for has a descendant who tests soon!
     
    Estimated ancestry after reviewing Ancestry.com, 23&Me, FTDNA My Origins, Living DNA and known family history:
    33% English, 27% Scottish, 18% Welsh, 18% Irish, 4% German/Netherlands

    Y-DNA leads to Isle of Skye, Scottish Highlands: R1b>M343>L278>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L151/L11>P312>Z290>L21/M529>DF13>L513/DF1>S5668>A7>Z21253> S7834 > S7828 > BY11203 > BY11186 (about 320-550 years old)

    MTDNA leads to Glamorgan, South Wales: K1a4a1f

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  9. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Over the last few months I’ve been researching matches my father, his paternal half sister, and paternal half niece (daughter of another paternal half sister), share from Cornwall, England. Cornwall is of interest because my father has no known recent ancestors from this area.
    My father’s paternal grandmother’s line is from Wales and the border areas of England.
    My father’s paternal grandfather’s mother’s (PGFM) line is from Scotland (PGFM father’s line) and British India (PGFM mother’s line going back to the 1700s).

    So no known paternal ancestry from Cornwall which might mean that my paternal line mystery man (my father’s paternal great grandfather) had ancestors from Cornwall.

    Many Cornwall surnames are not found in the rest of England i.e. they are unusual. Which is helpful in my research. On ancestry.com I’ve identified many paternal line matches as being on my father’s paternal grandmother’s (PGM) side. This is often easy to do because my father has quite a few known 2nd and 3rd PGM cousins that have tested with ancestry.com.

    Then there are those paternal matches that don’t match any other PGM matches or the PGM matches’ matches, or any PGFM matches (my father has a couple of 3rd cousins on this line that have tested at ancestry.com).

    These are the ones I spend a lot of time on, building ancestry trees on them, hoping to find connections.

    I’ve now reached a point where I’m getting some good triangulation in Cornwall for the following ancestry.com paternal matches (R.S. S.S. S.G. and X.B.)
    1. R.S. matches my father (43cM), my paternal aunt (12cM), and my paternal 1st cousin (14cM)
    2. R.S. has a 2nd cousin S.S. who also matches my father (22cM).
    3. R.S and S.S both descend from Alfred Lelant (1883-1962) and Beatric Gaut.
    4. The above Alfred Lelant descends from a Wilmus Donithorne (1607-1697) via Wilmus’ son Richard Donithorne (1651-1701). Wilmus is the son of William Donithorne (b ~1575)
    5. Wilmus had another son William Donithorne (1639-1713)
    6. S.G. matches my father (9cM) and my paternal 1st cousin (7cM). S.G. descends from the above William Donithorne (1639-1713).
    7. X.B. matches my father (21cM), and paternal aunt (24cM). He descends from William Donithorne (b 1575) via son Nicholas Donithorne.

    So, I don’t know how, or how far back, but there is a good chance my paternal line mystery man has a Donithorne from Cornwall ancestor.

    All I have to do is find every male descendant who could have fathered a child in England in September 1892. That shouldn’t be too hard
    The name DONITHORNE looks like a variant of DUNTHORN/E to me. You will find DUNTHORN/Es in Norfolk and Essex areas too. My own ancestor is a Thomas DUNTHORN from Cambridgeshire/Suffolk borders earlyish 1700s and it looks likely he was a Non-Conformist. Given the date you go back to maybe it is the West Country from which the East Anglian DUNTHORNS originally hail? I do have a slab of South Welsh DNA that I cannot account for as per Living DNA!

    Incidentally, John CONSTABLE's painting tutor was a John DUNTHORN but from where he originates I can't say.

    I'm also U152 and my ancestry is about 66% East Anglian, mainly Suffolk, based, with lots of Norman families judging by surnames, but though I now know via DNA my male ancestral line goes back to the 1450s in Suffolk I still don't know who my grandfather was!

    Good luck in your quest.

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  11. #166
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    One potential "show stopper" is my father's Paternal Grandmother has this unknown Romanichal ancestry. I've previously found a paternal match who has Romanichal ancestors from Falmouth, Cornwall: Phyllis Gipses Lee (1778-1848) and husband Edward Boswell. Boswell is a common Romanichal surname in the UK.

    While I would like to find the source for my father's Romanichal ancestry it is tangential to my paternal line mystery research.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-23-2019 at 10:40 PM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

  12. #167
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    I love watching you make breakthroughs because it gives me hope.

    My uncle tested for me and his mother, my grandma, is from Slovakia so pretty much all matches are my grandfathers. I'm trying to put them in 4 camps since I'm after my grandfather's grandfather and have made a huge list of shared segments and I so far have only incorporated people with a segment larger than 23cM. What's blowing my mind is the stickiness of some large segments.

    Chromosome 9 in particular I have 31 matches between 77m and 117m with 3 matches with over 50 cM and 6 more in the 40s. All that and no clue how they all related to each other. I keep looking at their families looking for matching ancestors so I can triangulate like you have but nothing so far. It's like this clump of DNA has been hanging around for half a millennium and people either get all of it or none of it with just a little nibbling at the edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert1 View Post
    I had a similar occurrence and suppose I could be called SmithSince1888.
    We could start our own section here. I'll be JohnsonSince1853ish.
    Last edited by Osiris; 05-24-2019 at 01:58 AM. Reason: for clarity
    Daughter's ggg grandparents(father to left, mother to right)
    Male: R-BY4242, R-Z344, ?, ?, E-V13, ?, E-L29, ?, R-Z20907, ?, ?, ?, R-L2, R-L20, ?, ?
    Female: ?, ?, H3g, ?, ?, ?, ?, W6a, ?, N1b1, ?, B4a1a1, ?, ?, ?, H3h, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, I3a, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, K1c1g

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  14. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris View Post
    I love watching you make breakthroughs because it gives me hope.

    My uncle tested for me and his mother, my grandma, is from Slovakia so pretty much all matches are my grandfathers. I'm trying to put them in 4 camps since I'm after my grandfather's grandfather and have made a huge list of shared segments and I so far have only incorporated people with a segment larger than 23cM. What's blowing my mind is the stickiness of some large segments.

    Chromosome 9 in particular I have 31 matches between 77m and 117m with 3 matches with over 50 cM and 6 more in the 40s. All that and no clue how they all related to each other. I keep looking at their families looking for matching ancestors so I can triangulate like you have but nothing so far. It's like this clump of DNA has been hanging around for half a millennium and people either get all of it or none of it with just a little nibbling at the edge.



    We could start our own section here. I'll be JohnsonSince1853ish.
    Instead of the "The Inglorious Bastards"


    we can be "The Anthrogenica Bastards"

    Or maybe a version of OPP,


    You down with NPE?
    (Yeah you know me)
    You down with NPE?
    (Yeah you know me)
    You down with NPE?
    (Yeah you know me)
    Who's down with NPE?
    (Every last homie)
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-24-2019 at 03:58 AM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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  16. #169
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    Hahaha, I love it!
    Daughter's ggg grandparents(father to left, mother to right)
    Male: R-BY4242, R-Z344, ?, ?, E-V13, ?, E-L29, ?, R-Z20907, ?, ?, ?, R-L2, R-L20, ?, ?
    Female: ?, ?, H3g, ?, ?, ?, ?, W6a, ?, N1b1, ?, B4a1a1, ?, ?, ?, H3h, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, I3a, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, K1c1g

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