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Thread: Help me to solve a family Mystery: My paternal line before my great grandfather.

  1. #11
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    U152>L2>Z41150>Z49>

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    Quote Originally Posted by J1 DYS388=13 View Post
    You mean you share a DNA segment with someone named Rowse?
    It's a very localised name http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Ma...y=GB&type=name
    Yes, but this Rowse line appears to turn into a Ross surname line after going back 2 generations. When I went to ancestry.com for this Mary Rowse b 1710 in Norfolk, VA, I see her father is a Alexander Rowse (b 1690 in Norfolk, VA. Alexander's father is listed variously as John Rowse/Ross/Rice/Rouse. The trees that show a father for this John, list Alexander Rose Ross (b 1630). But at that point I run into a dead end.

    As to this Dr Edward Leopold Rowse I had researched him before. Here is his obituary from 1935
    We regret to record the death, on October 13th at the age of 67, of Dr. EDWARD LEOPOLD Rowse of Putney. After studying at Charing Cross Hospital he took the diplomas of M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P. in 1890, and three years later obtained the degree of M.D. (with honours) at the University of Brussels. At the time of his death Dr. Rowse was consulting physician for women's diseases at the London Homoeopathic Hospital, where earlier in his career he had been resident medical officer. His former appointments included those of house-physician and resident obstetric officer at Charing Cross, and housephysician at the Brompton Hospital. From 1915 to 1918 Dr. Rowse was the officer commanding the Floriana and Ghain Tuffieha Hospitals in Malta. He held the rank of lieutenant-colonel in the R.A.M.C.(T.A,), and in 1921, when he was attached to the 1st London Field Ambulance, he was awarded the Territorial Decoration. Dr. Rowse joined the British Medical Association in 1911.
    On the surface it appears he was in the London area up until 1890, then he studied medicine at Brussels, Belgium until 1893. I guess he could have come back to London in the Fall of 1892 to become the father of ELM (ELM conceived around the end of Sep 1892), but because he appears to be in Belgium during this period, he didn't appear to be a strong candidate.

    Here is the distribution map per the http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Ma...y=GB&type=name

    rowse.png
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-19-2015 at 04:27 PM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

  2. #12
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    It could be possible that in the absence of a father that the child might have been named after the Doctor? Might the Doctor have worked at the same hospital or perhaps worked there on occasion as a charitable act?
    U152+ L2+ John Wilson is currently my oldest known direct male ancestor. John Wilson married in the parish of Hawick (Pronounced as Hoik) in the Scottish Borders in 1699. Many of his descendants went on to be very successful in business in Hawick and some even became somewhat famous. Like James Wilson (my 1st cousin) who was a manufacturer, then M.P and the founder of "The Economist" Magazine and the Standard Chartered Bank. Another was Sir James Glenny Wilson, also of Hawick originally.

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  4. #13
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    And I seem to match the garden variety Wheaton's at https://sites.google.com/site/wheato...ore-with-the-y ;-)
    U152+ L2+ John Wilson is currently my oldest known direct male ancestor. John Wilson married in the parish of Hawick (Pronounced as Hoik) in the Scottish Borders in 1699. Many of his descendants went on to be very successful in business in Hawick and some even became somewhat famous. Like James Wilson (my 1st cousin) who was a manufacturer, then M.P and the founder of "The Economist" Magazine and the Standard Chartered Bank. Another was Sir James Glenny Wilson, also of Hawick originally.

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrettMaximus View Post
    It could be possible that in the absence of a father that the child might have been named after the Doctor? Might the Doctor have worked at the same hospital or perhaps worked there on occasion as a charitable act?
    He very well could have. Until I get some 37, 67, and/or 111 marker matches I'm kinda stuck at the conjecture level...unless I can get some pretty solid autosomal dna triangulation results.

    Going back to William Keeling Syson being the father, WKS' mother was a Sarah Francis Keeling. I've traced this line back to a William Keeling (b. 1731 in Blackheath Stratfordshire).

    My father has approximately 10 different autosomal matches to folks with Keeling ancestors. They all go back to a John Keeling (b. 1582) from Worcestershire, England. But I currently don't know if my father's relation to them iis via their Keeling lines.

    So far I've been unable to connect this William Keeling b 1731 to the John Keeling b 1582.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

  7. #15
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    As it currently appears I don't have any close y-dna matches in the US centric FTDNA database, I started doing some research on what social economic groups from Britain and what geographic areas of Britain didn't come to America in large numbers.

    First sons of well to do families didn't immigrate to the US in large numbers compared to their brothers, as they typically inherited their father's estate. So maybe my paternal line is a long line of eldest/only sons that had no political, religious, or economic incentive to migrate.

    Or possibly they were from an area of Britain that didn't have much migration to the US.

    Below is a map of English immigrant locations from 1654 to 1686. Notice few emigrated from Sussex, Cornwall, Devon, Northern Wales, and Northwest England. Another area is Eastern Scotland. Eastern Scotland is a hot spot for U152.

    So maybe my paternal line was a somewhat well to do family, on the winning sides of the English Civil War and Jacobite Rebellions (the winners didn't need to leave the country); with a long line of only sons from Eastern Scotland, SW England, SE England, N Wales or NW England.

    As you can see I'm grasping at straws until something more concrete appears.

    1654-1686Emmigrates copy.jpg
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 06-24-2015 at 12:44 PM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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  9. #16
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    Additional maps I was able to find on British migration to America.

    Top one is English and Welsh Emigration to New England 1620 - 1700. Areas of sparse migration include Sussex, Cornwall, Wales, Monmouthshire, Herfordshire, Shropshire, Staffordshire, Cheshire, Westmorland, Cumberland, Northumberland.
    1620-1700Welsh-Eng-migration-to-US.jpg

    This map shows Previous Residences of Indentured Servants Departing from Bristol, England for the New World, 1654-1686. Combining this with other port data for the same period would give a more complete picture, but again, Sussex, North Wales, Northern England, and all of Scotland, and Ireland had few residents that left for America out of Bristol.
    Bstol.jpg

    This is another map showing previous residences of Indentured Servants departing from Bristol, England for the New World, 1654-1686.


    And this one shows indentured servant departures from London, 1682-1686.

    Again Sussex, Cornwall, Wales, and Northern England had relatively little migration to the New World compared to other areas.

    Finally, this map shows places of origin for Chesapeake Bay area...no dates given, so it may be total


    In all the maps above, Northern England had relatively few immigrants to the New World...Coincidentally it's also a U152 hot spot. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post81675
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 06-25-2015 at 04:23 AM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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  11. #17
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    As some you may know, you can use gedmatch to see if you have any connections to ancient dna samples using the "Archaic DNA" matching tool; or by using the "one to one comparison" and entering your kit# and ancient dna kit#...changing the default setting to say 3cM 300 SNPs and 25 threshold.

    This got me to to thinking. My closest confirmed match on my current terminal branch is 268283 Horatio Sylvanus Roberts 1822, London. According to Yfull tree our shared most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) lived around 1000BC. If I could match these other ancient dna samples, maybe I share an autosomal dna segment with this Roberts. If so, maybe I could use this to discover a paternal line match using my autosomal results.

    The owner of this Roberts kit has his and his son's dna loaded on gedmatch. My father and I also have our kits loaded on gedmatch.

    So I started doing various one to one comparisons on gedmatch and compiled the results in a spreadsheet. In order to be valid match, All 4 of us would have to share the same segment. There were 6 segments ~3cM or larger that all 4 of us share.

    There is no way of knowing if these shared segments are from our paternal lines or some other line.

    I took these segments and compared it to my father's known autosomal matches on gedmatch, 23andme, ancestry.com and ftdna. I've been loading all these matches into the "genome mate" tool for the last year.

    I'm still going through it, but I did run across something interesting. One of my autosomal matches that is on one of these 6 segments has the last name Biggers. I googled the owner of this kit's email and the word "bigger" and found this tidbit. This Bigger family comes from Biggar, Scotland and descends from ancestors who came from Flanders in during the 12 century AD. Some of these folks from Biggar took the surname "Fleming".

    I then looked for a Bigger, Biggar, and/or Fleming FTDNA project and found the "Scotland and the Flemish People Y-DNA Project" https://www.familytreedna.com/public...d/default.aspx

    Here I learned that
    Some estimates suggest that up to a third of the current Scottish population may have Flemish ancestors. These Flemish immigrants came to Scotland from Flanders over a 600 year period, between the 11th and 17th centuries.
    This may help explain why there appears to be a U152 hotspot in Southern and Eastern Scotland. From the Brabant DNA project, U152 in Flanders is about 10% of the present population.

    Anyway the jury is still out on this little gedmatch experiment but it's worth a try.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 06-26-2015 at 04:19 AM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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  13. #18
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    I would be very interested in knowing anything about the Stewart who is a match at 12/13 to your father. Just a hunch on my part, but who knows what a little clue might reveal. I love genealogical mysteries.
    -----------Ken

  14. #19
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    Here are all my Stewart matches. FTDNA/YSEARCH ID, Surname, Origin, Testing company, #STR markers tested, Genetic distance.

    While they haven't tested for it directly, most if not all of these are probably L21 SNP folks as they match relatively close to those that are positive for L21 and subclades.

    TN4GW Stewart Unknown* Unknown* Family Tree DNA* 12 2
    B8873 Stewart " UnknownOrigin " R-M269 Family Tree DNA* 76 11 13
    101611 Stewart " UnknownOrigin " R-M269 Family Tree DNA* 67 10 12
    142126 Stewart England* R-M269 Family Tree DNA* 67 11 13
    210080 Stewart " Scotland" R-M269 Family Tree DNA* 67 11 13
    242550 Stewart James Stewart, m. 1794 Eddleston Peeblesshire R-M269 Family Tree DNA* 67 12 13
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

  15. #20
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    A few months ago I created a ysearch.org account that only contained the STR values that my father's kit shares with his only other match on his current terminal branch and named it Y9080 (ytree name for this branch).

    A few weeks ago I noticed that one of the perfect matches for y9080 also was one of my father's closet 67 marker matches...although too distant to show up on ftdna. His genetic distance is 8 to 12 depending on which method is used.

    I contacted this individual and he agreed to take a SNP test at yseq for one of the 6 SNPs on my terminal branch.
    I requested FGC12401 be created using yseq's wishlist function for this purpose.

    Should know the results in a few weeks.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 08-01-2015 at 04:04 AM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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