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Thread: R1a in Italy

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Obviously, the Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture is a valuable candidate for Balto-Slavic... But the forest steppe still makes sense as a gravity center for most of the Late PIE dialects, for instance Gimbutas' "third wave" implies a similar process.
    So what other forest steppe culture is left? Doesn't Mallory view the presence of Iranian dialects in the forest steppe as a Southern intrusion?

    What other place could Greco-Armeno-Aryan be besides the Late-Yamnaya-Catacomb-Poltavka chain if the more northern chain is Baltic and Slavic + Abashevo which looks just like Fataynovo-Balanovo with a Poltavka-Catacomb steppe element?

    http://bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/...peCultures.jpg

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    So what other forest steppe culture is left? Doesn't Mallory view the presence of Iranian dialects in the forest steppe as a Southern intrusion?

    What other place could Greco-Armeno-Aryan be besides the Late-Yamnaya-Catacomb-Poltavka chain if the more northern chain is Baltic and Slavic + Abashevo which looks just like Fataynovo-Balanovo with a Poltavka-Catacomb steppe element?

    http://bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/...peCultures.jpg
    The Late PIE dialect which led to the Graeco-Armeno-Aryan node presumably had to be spoken somewhere close to Abashevo, for instance this is what Mallory states in his entry on the Abashevo culture:

    "Settlements have left remains indicative of a mixed
    agricultural economy. Metal sickles and stone grinders suggest
    agriculture while the animal remains are almost exclusively
    those of domestic animals. Cattle predominate, then sheep/
    goat, while pig and horse are found in smaller amounts.
    Cheek-pieces, typical of neighboring steppe cultures (and also
    of the Mycenaeans
    ), reveal the use of the horse and' (probably)
    chariot."

    But this is all archeology to me, the only thing I can be sure of at this point is that the PIE urheimat was to be found on Pontic-Caspian steppe and that it inscribes itself within a Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic timeframe, the rest is an educated guess at best (while I'd surmise that several nodes and clades are bound to be valid, more work needs to be done in order to resolve some of the finer and more controversial issues, such as the position of scantly attested languages).
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Yea but there is so little Z93 (~5% in both) among Greeks and Armenians and both regions have seen Iranian influence especially Armenia. Also R1b doesn't really reach even that 5% in many Indo-Iranian groups. Where would be place this node of IE? The favored origin for Z93+ for most seems to be the forest steppe and I don't think the contacts between the forest steppe and steppe were all that intensive that one node of IE existed across the boundary.
    Even that looks high going by Underhill's data-set.
    Greece 1/171
    Armenians 8/427

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The Late PIE dialect which led to the Graeco-Armeno-Aryan node presumably had to be spoken somewhere close to Abashevo, for instance this is what Mallory states in his entry on the Abashevo culture:

    "Settlements have left remains indicative of a mixed
    agricultural economy. Metal sickles and stone grinders suggest
    agriculture while the animal remains are almost exclusively
    those of domestic animals. Cattle predominate, then sheep/
    goat, while pig and horse are found in smaller amounts.
    Cheek-pieces, typical of neighboring steppe cultures (and also
    of the Mycenaeans
    ), reveal the use of the horse and' (probably)
    chariot."

    But this is all archeology to me, the only thing I can be sure of at this point is that the PIE urheimat was to be found on Pontic-Caspian steppe and that it inscribes itself within a Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic timeframe, the rest is an educated guess at best (while I'd surmise that several nodes and clades are bound to be valid, more work needs to be done in order to resolve some of the finer and more controversial issues, such as the position of scantly attested languages).
    Greco-Aryan was also mentioned in the entry for Catacomb wasn't it? That sounds more likely imo.

  5. #25
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    If its could help, i m R1a and my direct paternal ancestor came from Schio, Vicenza in Veneto(Italy), i m R1a>>Z280>>Y2613>>YP3929, a typical Balkanic Subclade.Might have some relation with Schiavone Venetians(venetians with croatian background) or even with Slovenes.

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