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Thread: DF49xM222 Names and Geographical Origins

  1. #1
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    DF49xM222 Names and Geographical Origins

    I've tried to re-introduce this data into a new thread, as its scope is larger than my own family research. I've limited it to DF49xDF23, not because I want to be rude to descendant lines, but because I want to see if there are any hints as to the origins and spread of the parent (DF49) SNP. I'm hoping this will keep the format so that it is easily readable. Last time I did this, everything ended up being pulled to the left. There are a few more names that have found their way into this list, as well, or old ones that have a new place in larger subsets. I will note some of the patterns I'm observing later, but I'd appreciate other eyes and thoughts, as well.

    Unclassified
    Unknown =Finland* (Not tested)
    Noel = Unknown
    Couture =Normandy, France
    Murray =Unknown (Scotland?)

    0A ) Z2980-, ZP20-
    McCreary =Northern Ireland/Scotland
    Blair =Ireland/England (Orig. Scotland?)
    McKinney =Scotland?

    A ) Z2980-, ZP20+, ZP21-
    McGee =Unknown (orig. Irish or Scottish?)
    Bowers =Unknown (orig. England?)
    McElrea/McYlrea/Mylrea =Manx (some of whom immigrated to Ireland)
    Officer =Scotland
    Johnson =Unknown
    Allred =Lancashire, England
    Kendall =Unknown (Cumbria?)
    Parry/Perry =Liverpool, England

    A1 ) ZP20+, ZP21+, ZP23-
    Culver =London, England
    Burgess =England
    Pettit =England
    Bengtsson =Sweden
    Pruett/Pruitt/Prewitt =England
    Ewstas =Kent, England
    Morgan =Louth, Ireland (orig. Wales?)
    Robertson =Berwickshire, Scotland

    A1a ) ZP21+, ZP23+, L302-
    Allison =Scotland
    O'Dea =Unknown (Ireland?)

    A1a1 ) ZP21+, ZP23+ : Hopkins McCabe Cluster. Contains L302 & L319
    Hopkins =Ireland
    McCabe =Ireland
    Gillespie =Unknown
    Byrne =Ireland
    Harrison =Cheshire, England

    A2) ZP20+, ZP80+
    Kendall =Unknown (England?)

    B1 ) Z2980+, ZP54+, ZP60+
    Holladay =England
    Gibson =Unknown

    B1 ) FGC9591+, ZP41+
    Goff =Scotland
    Smith =Unknown
    Mason =Unknown
    Stedman =Shropshire, England
    Biddick =Cornwall, England
    Miller = Unknown
    Thompson =United Kingdom

    C ) DF49+, Z2980+, Z2976+, Z2983+, DF23-
    Wilson =Ireland (orig. Scotland or England?)
    Bennett =Kinross (Perth), Scotland
    Last edited by David Mc; 03-15-2015 at 08:35 AM.

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  3. #2
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    Thank you David, a very useful summary !!

    Personally I think DF23 x M222 should be included, the SNP gap between Z2961 and the M222 level is very large, and if it were the geographic spread would also increase.

    That said we are starting to get a smattering of continental DF49 x DF23 coming through now. Abril (only visible in the SNP page) is Z2976* via Yseq and is Spanish whilst Neaves is DF49 * (also via Yseq and with a ZP20 test pending) who has a very credible ancestry going back to Rouen in Normandy.

    There is also somebody with a presumed ancestry from Jersey (Chanel Isles) who is DF49** but probably Z2980**, the Chanel Isles has historically always had a much closer conection with France than Britain.

    A small addition to the details above is Evans who is ZP80 and has an ancestry from North Wales.

    WRT to the origins of other people in the list, Goff and Thompson are both (unfortunately) thoroughly brickwalled in the US. I think we can quite safely put Johnson down as Scottish (he has a very close GD to Officer and Johnson is a Scottish name) and Pettit's family came from Sussex. WRT to Morgan, apparently there are Irish names that were anglicised (welshified ? : ) to this.

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    Thanks for your comments, jdean. You make a good point, and I will amend the OP to include DF23 (although it might take me a couple of days-- I'm having a quick read of the forum between different activities today). It's interesting to see Normandy and France starting to make some appearances. One of the things I observed in the list above is a stronger presence in the West of Britain, between Wales and Scotland, with a few in Ireland. Having said that, some of them come from the South of England (Sussex and Kent) or the northeast of Scotland, and there's another from farther southwest (Cornwall). If I recall correctly, Officer posted that he believed his family came to Scotland from elsewhere...

    I'm still considering the idea that DF49xDF23 (or, at least DF49xM222) might have come to the Isles later than some of its subclades, but there is a strong enough West British grouping that I wonder if it mightn't still reflect some Older British stock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Thank you David, a very useful summary !!

    Personally I think DF23 x M222 should be included, the SNP gap between Z2961 and the M222 level is very large, and if it were the geographic spread would also increase.

    That said we are starting to get a smattering of continental DF49 x DF23 coming through now. Abril (only visible in the SNP page) is Z2976* via Yseq and is Spanish whilst Neaves is DF49 * (also via Yseq and with a ZP20 test pending) who has a very credible ancestry going back to Rouen in Normandy.

    There is also somebody with a presumed ancestry from Jersey (Chanel Isles) who is DF49** but probably Z2980**, the Chanel Isles has historically always had a much closer conection with France than Britain.

    A small addition to the details above is Evans who is ZP80 and has an ancestry from North Wales.

    WRT to the origins of other people in the list, Goff and Thompson are both (unfortunately) thoroughly brickwalled in the US. I think we can quite safely put Johnson down as Scottish (he has a very close GD to Officer and Johnson is a Scottish name) and Pettit's family came from Sussex. WRT to Morgan, apparently there are Irish names that were anglicised (welshified ? : ) to this.
    There is a Morgan who has done a ton of research on O'Morgan's and Morgan's of Ireland (you can google the name for each province). The scope is much broader than may be perceived. According to his research there are numerous clans in all four provinces that had Gaelic names that evolved into several different anglicized variants, Morgan being one of them. One can just take a look at the "Morgan" surname project to learn that the name is ubiquitous in the Isles, especially in the east, from Dublin to Belfast. I was under the impression that Welsh Morgan's, at least of recent history (400-500 years) settled mainly in Wexford and Waterford. We have never thought of ourselves as anything but native Irish because of our religion. However, that doesn't exclude any possibilities of a Welsh background, but my cousin in Ireland who has done some work highly doubts it.

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    BTW...I like this, I like what you're doing with this chart. The diversity is interesting.

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  11. #6
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    Here are the DF23xM222 additions:

    C-000 ) DF49+ DF23+ Z2961 ?
    Cleator =United Kingdom
    Leitch =Scotland

    C1 ) DF23+ Z2961-
    McComb/McCombs =Ireland
    Brin/Brun =France
    Vaughn =Wales
    Clark =Unknown
    Caldwell = Ireland
    Carle/Carll =United Kingdom
    Boone =France (?)
    Doherty =Donegal, Ireland
    Bonnet =Piemont, Italy
    Vann =Unknown
    Phillips =Unknown
    Anglin =Ireland

    C1a ) DF23+ Z2961+ M222-
    Sullivan =Unknown (Ireland?)
    Leprost =France
    Warren =United Kingdom
    Madden =Clare/Limerick, Ireland
    McPhillips =Ireland
    McCaffry = Unknown (Ireland?)
    Kelly =Ireland
    Martin =Antrim, Ireland
    Carroll =Tipperary, Ireland
    Heil =Hungary
    Lewis =Wales

    C1a1 ) Z2961+ ZZ29+ ZZ30+
    Powell =Unknown
    Pruner =Unknown

    C1a1a ) ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP69+
    Joyce =Galway, Ireland
    Thomas =Unknown
    Allen =Ireland

    C1a2 ) Z2961+ ZP75+ ZP76+
    Johnston/Johnstone = Northern Ireland/Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland
    Tinker =England
    Fancher/Fanshaw/Fancy =England
    Landon =England

    C1a2a ) Z2961+ ZP75+ ZP76+, ZP77+
    Trainor =Ireland

  12. #7
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    If a moderator sees this, would you kindly edit the forum title to say: "DF49xM222 Names and Geographical Origins"?

    Thank you.

  13. #8
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    Just noticed the McGee project has an Owens from Wales who looks like he might (?) cluster with "our" McGees (and therefore ZP20).

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  15. #9
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    Looking at the McKinney Project, there is also a Scottish McDougald who seems to be a STR match for our (Z2980-, ZP20-)McKinneys.

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    A Mylrea (FTDNA Kit# 338138) has just joined the R-DF49 and Subclades Project, which is an exciting addition for me. The McYlrea surname was carried from Mann to Ireland a few hundred years ago where it became McElrea. In the Isle of Man itself, about 15 years ago, most of the "Mc" names dropped the "c," and McYlrea became Mylrea.

    A question for jdean: Will the Mylreas need to test for ZP20 in order to take their place with the McElreas, or can they be assigned to ZP20?

    He has tested positive for DF49, so I don't know why FTDNA still shows him as a predicted R-L21... but I know that's FTDNA, not the administrators.
    Last edited by David Mc; 03-22-2015 at 02:07 AM.

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