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Thread: L513 in Ireland

  1. #1
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    L513 in Ireland

    Hi All,

    Just wondering a bit more about L513 in Ireland. Over at Yahoo there have been quite a few developments in terms of working out structure downstream of L193, and one or two continental results, leading again to questions of possible origin. Surname histories in the UK would support a number of theories.

    But it seem that L513, at least some branches, are more established in Ireland from earlier times - e.g. the old 'Arghialla II' type of Maguires etc. Any ideas on the origins of L153 in Ireland, and how that might tie into what we're seeing in other branches in the UK and beyond?

    Jon

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  3. #2
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    R1b-L21 L513*

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    It's pretty safe to count multiple L513 migration effects into Ireland at least over the last 1000 years but hard to tell more IMHO.

    Under S5668, the FGC9807 block (McGuires, etc) reports the most consistent Ireland origins of a major L513 subgroup and from their Big Y SNPs (using Mike's SNP Depth Chart) and variation of surnames their MRCAxBissett is likely 800-1000 ybp in Ireland, with MRCA+Bissett another 1000+ years before that. So let's say they've been in Ireland at least since 950-1150AD if the Bissett line came in a separate migration, but possibly since around 0AD. Anyone who knows that subgroup better can certainly correct me on those estimates.

    It appears one or more branches of Z17819 under A7 made it to Ireland independently from FGC9807 (since A7 overall doesn't look like it has an Ireland origin) at an early stage, but they have such a small number of SNPs the timeframe is more uncertain.

    And in L193, most of the A3* Vance/Vans kits are actually most recently from Ireland, only the proven older line is from Scotland. But we know this represents a migration into Ireland from Scotland around 1600AD - it doesn't detract from L193's Scottish origins, it's just a separate and more recent migration of L513 into Ireland.

    Over on the S6365 side, there is such variation that most of the lines reporting Irish origins could be relatively new in Ireland... might hazard a WAG that BY16 shows signs of early connections to Ireland but I wouldn't discount independent migrations to Ireland there either.

    Back-migrations out of Ireland for branches of L513 are certainly possible too which would hide an earlier presence of L513 there. Others may see evidence of that, I can't.

    Then you've got the outlier... Z23519 (my own group), outside of both S5668 and S6365 and found ONLY in Ireland so far. We know the MRCA of the current subgroup lived around 1300AD and so Z23519 could have appeared in Ireland anywhere from say 1800BC-1300AD.

    To me this all argues for an early presence of L513 in England/Scotland/Wales as launching points for multiple migrations into Ireland over a long period of time. But it doesn't preclude L513 riding continental or Scandinavian migrations into Ireland, either.

    Dave

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  5. #3
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    R1b-L513/Z16337

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    Jon and Dave,

    I can "see" between Alex Williamson's Big Tree (http://www.littlescottishcluster.com...php?blockID=10 ), Mike Walsh's L513 discovery and haplotype spreadsheets and Jim Maguire's Chronology of Maguires ( http://web.archive.org/web/200308140.../Maguire1.html )...points of likely crossover. In other words, the beginnings of SNP timeline crossing into genealogy.

    L513 is made of S5668 and S56365 with a few outlier/single SNP groups.
    S5668 is composed primarily of A7 (L513-L193), Z16340 (L513-A2) and Z16343

    Most of us in the A2 group have as a Progenitor a man noted in the Annals of the Four Masters as "Uidhir", 956AD

    The lineage ( http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.c...e/Pedigree.htm ) begins with Donn Mor Mag Uidhir as the great grandfather of Donn Carrach Maguire (d-1302)....."begins" is a loaded term for genealogy work. DCM is the first Maguire to be listed as a prince or king of Co Fermanaugh (~1264-1302). However, if you follow the claimed pedigree out into the follow on branches or septs with the new NGS SNPs....there are some logical comparisons that pop up.

    Rough timeline

    956 - Uidhir
    1160 - Donn Mor (had at least 4 sons or 3 branches with new septs) Gothraidh (Corry), Gaillghile (Lilly), Maghnus (McManus - who's branch had a sub sept of Breen)
    1260 - Donn Carrach (Had at least 4 sons too...3 new septs: MacCraith (McGrath), Gafraidh (McCafferty), Amloamh (McAuley who had a son that begat the MacMahon sept who also had a son beginning the McHugh sept)
    Post DCM (roughly 1800 up to now)
    ....whew....

    So, my little listing o' SNPs looks like this: R-P312>L21>DF13>L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9807>FGC9795>FG C9804>Z16337

    My brother and I match 111/111, I've tested WTY and our project has some 12 A2 guys tested Bigy with 1 FGC test. My FTDNA results have 42 matches up to GD -10, 135 matches at Y67 GD -7, 132 at Y37 GD -4, 268 matches at Y25 GD -2. The obvious breakout point for our Ht is at Y37 however, at the Y111 we can begin to see sept branching as well.

    FGC9795 looks like a likely split for DCM and sons which would place FGC9807 as a logical Donn Mor split.
    Since I am Z16337+ and McCown is not AND since he is P66+ and I am not and we're both FGC9807+ then we fall in the Post DCM period. I have seen age estimates for P66 at circa mid 1400s, so that too helps.

    Still a work in progress!! More as it happens.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Hi All,

    Just wondering a bit more about L513 in Ireland. Over at Yahoo there have been quite a few developments in terms of working out structure downstream of L193, and one or two continental results, leading again to questions of possible origin. Surname histories in the UK would support a number of theories.

    But it seem that L513, at least some branches, are more established in Ireland from earlier times - e.g. the old 'Arghialla II' type of Maguires etc. Any ideas on the origins of L153 in Ireland, and how that might tie into what we're seeing in other branches in the UK and beyond?

    Jon

    This is a very good topic but as we get into these things we don't always get conclusive results. I think over time we'll increase in confidence as more testing is done, particularly in the groups that appear "unnassigned" or unclusterable do NGS types of testing.

    Another good question is how old is old. Since you brought up old Airghelli II and the Maguire/Burns types let's look at them as a case. I think I just reworked what Dave V has just shown us, but I'll go through it directly to see if it differs much. Here is Alex's Big Tree for L513. If you slightly to the left of center you will see the block of 8 SNPs led by FGC9807.
    http://www.littlescottishcluster.com...GS/R-L513.html

    If we go with Mark Jost's evaluation and take the DF13 Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) as 3750 years ago, then we get the L513 as a phylogenetic block of 6 SNPs so L513's MRCA could easily be 3200 to 3000 years ago or so.


    The next step down, we can see that there are 4 SNPs leading down to the FGC9807 block. Then we see there are eight SNPs in the FGC9807.

    Below that on the Maguire/McDonald/Plunkett side we get another 25 or so SNPs.

    To summarize, from DF13 (3700 years ago) to the MRCA of the FGC9087 block is 18 SNPs, from there on down in the Maguire/McDonald/Plunkett group is another 25 SNPs. We can think of the FGC9807 as possibly being about a third of the way down or about 2100 years ago - 1100 BC.

    Why do I care about the FGC9807 MRCA so much? That's the last big split in STR signatures and SNPs we know within the FGC9807 branch. The lone man on the other side of FGC9807, the non Airghelli II guy, is Bissett. He thinks he might associated with Clan Bissett in Scotland. We could think of him as a distant cousin to Airghelli II. Wikipedia says,
    "The Bysets settled in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire in England.[4] They appear with other Norman families to have successfully established themselves and gained land in Morayshire, Scotland"

    We don't know what kind of Bissett he is, but a Scottish origin makes a lot of sense and then if you look back they may not even have been from Scotland.

    So how old is old? There is a very good chance that when the predecessors of the old Arighelli II lineages split from the predecessors to the Bissets these guys weren't in Ireland, maybe not even in Scotland.

    We don't know, but we could use some more unclustered/unassigned folks to do Big Y's to further break up the FGC9807 block. Hopefully, the trail of bread crumbs (SNPs) from the old FGC9807 block will give us a geographic trail.

    [[[ Edited to fix SNP name - it's FGC9807 ]]]
    Last edited by Mikewww; 03-20-2015 at 03:19 AM.

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  9. #5
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    Mike,

    Isn't the subject SNP FGC9807?? Not 9087? Otherwise I have some scrubbing to do....

    Brad
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    This is a very good topic but as we get into these things we don't always get conclusive results. I think over time we'll increase in confidence as more testing is done, particularly in the groups that appear "unnassigned" or unclusterable do NGS types of testing.

    Another good question is how old is old. Since you brought up old Airghelli II and the Maguire/Burns types let's look at them as a case. I think I just reworked what Dave V has just shown us, but I'll go through it directly to see if it differs much. Here is Alex's Big Tree for L513. If you slightly to the left of center you will see the block of 8 SNPs led by FGC9807.
    http://www.littlescottishcluster.com...GS/R-L513.html

    If we go with Mark Jost's evaluation and take the DF13 Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) as 3750 years ago, then we get the L513 as a phylogenetic block of 6 SNPs so L513's MRCA could easily be 3200 to 3000 years ago or so.


    The next step down, we can see that there are 4 SNPs leading down to the FGC9087 block. Then we see there are eight SNPs in the FGC9807.

    Below that on the Maguire/McDonald/Plunkett side we get another 25 or so SNPs.

    To summarize, from DF13 (3700 years ago) to the MRCA of the FGC9807 block is 18 SNPs, from there on down in the Maguire/McDonald/Plunkett group is another 25 SNPs. We can think of the FGC9807 as possibly being about a third of the way down or about 2100 years ago - 1100 BC.

    Why do I care about the FGC9807 MRCA so much? That's the last big split in STR signatures and SNPs we know within the FGC9807 branch. The lone man on the other side of FGC9807, the non Airghelli II guy, is Bissett. He thinks he might associated with Clan Bissett in Scotland. We could think of him as a distant cousin to Airghelli II. Wikipedia says,
    "The Bysets settled in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire in England.[4] They appear with other Norman families to have successfully established themselves and gained land in Morayshire, Scotland"

    We don't know what kind of Bissett he is, but a Scottish origin makes a lot of sense and then if you look back they may not even have been from Scotland.

    So how old is old? There is a very good chance that when the predecessors of the old Arighelli II lineages split from the predecessors to the Bissets these guys weren't in Ireland, maybe not even in Scotland.

    We don't know, but we could use some more unclustered/unassigned folks to do Big Y's to further break up the FGC9807 block. Hopefully, the trail of bread crumbs (SNPs) from the old FGC9807 block will give us a geographic trail.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 03-20-2015 at 03:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mag Uidhir 6 View Post
    Mike,

    Isn't the subject SNP FGC9807?? Not 9087? Otherwise I have some scrubbing to do....

    Brad
    Yes, of course it is FGC9807. I tried to edit my mistakes to get it all back to straight. I have darndest time with this one.

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  12. #7
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    RL21>L513>FGC9811
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    Hi all,

    my subclade is FGC9775, I'm just trying to gather as much info on it as I can and hope I have posted in the correct place. I hear I have to do a STR test like the Big Y test but I don't plan to in the near future but maybe in a while hopefully. Hope you don't mind me sharing my subclade here, this seemed to be the place were all avenues where leading me to lol

    Thanks,

    Gary

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  14. #8
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    Gary,
    You are definitely in the right spot. I administer the Airgialla Mag Uidhir Project at FTDNA. If you purchase a Y37 or higher STR kit, then we can include your STRs for comparison in addition to uploading your SNPs. Where did you test?

    Brad

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    Brad,
    Thanks for the reply.
    I tested at DNA Worldwide first after initially receiving my 23andMe results. DNA Worldwide are, I believe, partners to FTDNA and use the same gene pool I assume. They are launching a more in-depth ethnic ancestry test in the coming year hopefully in which I will receive more autosomal results with more online features too.
    Regarding the STR kit, I would be interested in getting one in the next few months so I will definitely be checking the prices out.

    Gary
    Last edited by Goodman; 03-22-2016 at 08:00 PM.

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