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Thread: Pre-Beaker R1b in the Isles - can we rule it out?

  1. #161
    One of the things I am grossly uninformed on is the level of HG (WHG/EHG) in modern middle eastern populations (R1b/R1a carriers). I've heard it's non-existent. If this is the case, wouldn't that shift the PIE urheimat slightly more to the south of the Samara? Maykop?

    This would contradict the linguistic argument that Uralic and PIE were in contact however...
    Last edited by Augustus; 03-24-2015 at 03:07 AM.

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  3. #162
    Virginia, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    This is kind of pointless, since we actually agree about L23 coming from the steppe, but if I am actually missing something blatantly obvious I'd really like to work out how. I am not expecting proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

    So, since the Samara Yamnaya could have gone either way on the Y haplogroup, what I am not seeing is why having a subclade expand into an area where another branch of its parent clade existed is in any way remarkable. If a clade expands, it is likely to encounter its brother clades, since they are likely to be nearby. This is perfectly ordinary and happens all the time.

    So why would it be surprising, in itself, if R1b farmers expanded to where R1b foragers had lived? R1b-P312 people ended up where Cardial R1b farmers preceded them. Is this somehow remarkable? No.
    Well, one has to look at the totality of the circumstances, which in this case should not be necessary to review, since they have been gone over ad nauseam in this thread.

    Let's start with the single ancient Els Trocs R1b1-M415 from Spain, who was found with a group of I2a and one F*, as I recall. For one thing, we don't have seven ancient R1b bodies from circa 3,000 BC buried near the site where Els Trocs was found, one of them a mere 2 km away. For another, it is very likely, given what we know of the R1b story, that Els Trocs was V88+ and at least P297- and so not even on the same R1b line as the current R1b-P312 inhabitants of Spain. Thus it is unlikely that Els Trocs is the ancestor of any R1b-P312 man in Spain living today, and we don't have seven ancient R1b's from around 3,000 BC buried nearby with whom to compare him.

    So we don't have a set of ancient R1b results near Els Trocs to be amazed about, like we do when it comes to the Yamnaya seven and the Samara hunter-gatherer.

    It's true that we do not know for sure that Els Trocs was V88+ or even P297-, but that does seem likely, given what we know of the R1b story and the early splitting off a pre-P297 (P297-) line, its departure for the Near East and, subsequently, for Africa and points west in southern Europe. That left an eastern branch of R1b behind, from among whom P297 arose and spawned the branches M73 and M269. Of course, one could argue (but it's telling that no one is doing so) that Els Trocs was the ancestor of or in the same y line as modern Western European R1b-L51, but that would necessitate either a double origin for L23, western and eastern, or deriving the L23 on the steppe and elsewhere in the East from Iberia, a thing very unlikely.

    Lastly, it seems certain that R1b originated either in far eastern Europe or in Asia, since that is where the rest of Super Group K is found together and especially R1b's closest relatives, R1a and Q. Not only that, but, as I mentioned, there is the pretty obvious early bifurcation of R1b into 1) a pre-P297 line that went to the Near East and points west, and from among whom V88 arose; and 2) an eastern P297+ line, from among whom both M73 and M269 arose. From this second, eastern P297+ line, as I said, M269 and its descendants stem, including L23 and its sons, Z2103 and L51.

    We simply do not have this same set of circumstances in Spain, which is why finding the Els Trocs R1b1-M415, while really cool and interesting, is just not on the same level as finding the Samara hunter-gatherer and the Yamnaya seven.

    And, really, finding that Samara R1b1-L278 hunter-gatherer only becomes an incredible, shocking thing when one claims that those seven Yamnaya R1b's were the relatively recent descendants of immigrants from some distant place in the Near East or the Caucasus. Otherwise, if they were really native to the Volga-Ural steppe, then it isn't all that surprising to find one of their ancestors, or at least a close relative of their ancestors, buried nearby.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-24-2015 at 11:42 AM.

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