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Thread: Pre-Beaker R1b in the Isles - can we rule it out?

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    Pre-Beaker R1b in the Isles - can we rule it out?

    On the "R1b and its sibling R1a possible route(s) into Europe" thread I mentioned some still outstanding "post Haak 2015" issues.

    I would like to elaborate on three of them in this new thread: 1 cremation; 2 later Neolithic Megalithic monuments; and 3 Neolithic meso/brachycephal remains.

    1. a cremation trail?
    Background -
    When I look at L21, U152 and, to a lesser extent, DF27 in the Bronze Age I see people who are steeped in a cremation tradition. This seems odd because our P312 Beakers were steeped in the single grave tradition - very closely related to Corded traditions.

    The Neolithic Cremation 'trail'
    For example, we can find cremation documented in the Tisza-Polgar culture and Baden culture. Kosco and Videiko (1995 - Origin of Neolithic and Eneolithic Cremation Rites in Europe) talk of the Northern Model of cremation and movement of cremation south into the Danube and into the Balkans.

    Childe (1950 Prehistoric Migrations in Europe) links the origins of cremation back to eastern Turkey. he also makes links to copper prospectors. On page 114/5 he states about Baden settlements "On the other hand several cases of cremation have been reported. ....Accordingly, Baden societies may have contained Anatolian prospectors attracted by the ores of central Europe They may even be constituted by a northward extension of that early macedonian migration across the Balkans that we envisaged in chapter V."
    So who were the people spreading cremation rituals in central/western Europe during the Neolithic / chalcolithic? Did they come from the North, or the Steppe or from Anatolia? Can we rule out R1b?

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    [QUOTE=Net Down G5L;74674]On the "I would like to elaborate on three of them in this new thread: 1 cremation; 2 later Neolithic Megalithic monuments; and 3 Neolithic meso/brachycephal remains.

    2. Megalithic - 're-arrangement 3000BCE'
    I find it very difficult to pin down an accurately dated sequence for Megalithic monuments. The literature is just too contradictory - menhirs, passage graves, gallery graves, dolmens etc.
    I will start with just one sub-issue. Who "re-arranged the monuments" at about 3000BCE?
    I attended the Prehistoric Society conference in London earlier this month. Alison Sheridon, Colin Richards and Josh Pollard made interesting comments about re-arranged monuments. Alison talked briefly about the Orkney elite introducing solar aligned monuments in Orkney c 3200-2900. Colin referred to La Hougue Bie on jersey as a composite monument made up of dismantled earlier monuments brought together to make a new monument about 3000BCE. He also described the Ring of brodgar, Stenness circle and Maeshowe as amalgams of earlier monuments on Orkney. Josh Pollard talked of 'renewed monument building' at Stonehenge c. 3000BCE and also cremation burials at the same time.
    So who were the Neolithic people who rearranged older monuments, possibly worshiped a sun god and possibly practiced cremation rituals. Can we rule out R1b?

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    [QUOTE=Net Down G5L;74675]
    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    On the "I would like to elaborate on three of them in this new thread: 1 cremation; 2 later Neolithic Megalithic monuments; and 3 Neolithic meso/brachycephal remains.
    3. Coon - Neolithic mesocephalic and brachycephalic remains
    I can hear some of you groaning. However, I think we have a lot to learn from Abercrombie, Vere Gorden Childe, Daniel, Hawkes, Coon etc - as well as Gimbutas. They were not afraid to talk about cultures and migrations, and i believe a lot of their hypotheses will be proven to be partly true by our analysis of DNA.
    Abercrombie (1912 Bronze Age Pottery) linked the work of Ripley on skull types to his analysis of pottery and described brachycephal people moving north west from the alps (Alpine types) to Borreby.
    Coon 1939 (The Races of Europe) thought the Alpine and Borreby brachycephals to be 'Mesolithic remnants'. Coon did however plot the route of a 'new migration of "Armenoid" brachycephal, sub-brachycephal and mesocephal people in the Neolithic. He traces their movement through the Mediterranean from Cyprus to Crete and through to cist graves in Sweden and Denmark.
    Here is a sample extract from page 146:
    " The evidence of the racial composition of the Copper Age sailors who reached Italy and the Italian islands is simple and direct. The moderately tall, long-headed, and narrow-nosed Megalithic people who were implanted, during the Late Neolithic, upon the smaller Mediterranean type which had preceded them, were followed, during the Aeneolithic, by others of the same kind, in the company of equally tall brachycephals. The latter resembled the people of the same Dinaric head form in Cyprus, Crete, and the Aegean, and without doubt formed a westward extension of the same movement."

    So, who were the 'Anatolian' brachycephals and mesocephals? Can we rule out R1b?
    Last edited by Net Down G5L; 03-17-2015 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Typo

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    What would "Pre-Beaker R1b in the Isles" be? Neolithic farmers? Mesolithic hunter-gatherers?

    Anything is possible, I guess, and we are often reminded by those who don't like the way things are going that, until we dig up every last ancient cadaver, we cannot be sure there isn't a 9,000-year-old R1b hidden somewhere in Western Europe to prove the truth of the Iberian Refuge or the Italian Refuge or what not.

    The way I see it, and obviously I could be wrong, there are some pretty evident trends in ancient y-dna that are indicative of the way things were and how they played out. G2a appears to be the default Neolithic farmer y haplogroup, evidently descended from immigrants from the Near East. Y haplogroup I, especially I2a, appears to be native to Europe and to be the main y haplogroup of European hunter-gatherers of the Mesolithic and earlier. There are traces of other y haplogroups, like F, C, and E-V13, and even one R1b1-M415 from Neolithic Spain who was probably R1b-V88 and represents a P297- line that left Eurasia for the Near East and Africa long before the rise of the R1b-L23 line that is currently the most frequent form of R1b in Europe.

    No R1b-L23 has been found in Europe older than that belonging to six of the seven Yamnaya remains from the Samara and Orenburg oblasts in Russia from the recent Haak et al paper. The oldest R1b yet found anywhere, about 7,600 years old, was recovered from a hunter-gatherer exhumed near Samara.

    A number of well-respected scholars, David Anthony and James Mallory among them, attribute the spread of Proto-Indo-European to the Yamnaya cultural horizon, and the only Yamnaya y-dna results thus far are all R1b, most of them R1b-L23.

    Some of those same scholars believe the Italo-Celtic branch of the Indo-European languages was spread by the Bell Beaker people, and now, thanks again to Haak et al, we have a Bell Beaker R1b-P312 result from a site near Quedlinburg, Germany, to accompany the two earlier R1bxU106 results (probably P312+, as well) from a site near Kromsdorf, Germany. We know that both the Bell Beaker people and Italo-Celtic languages eventually reached the British Isles and Ireland; it would not be too much of a stretch to infer that they arrived together.

    So, thus far we have no sign whatsoever of R1b-L23 in Europe from Germany west earlier than Bell Beaker in the late third millennium BC, and lots of Neolithic farmer y-dna belonging to y haplogroups that are not R1b. We also have a number of Mesolithic results that are not R1b. And we have a Western Europe that came to be Indo-European speaking somehow. Indo-European has an east-to-west phylogeography and - surprise! - so does R1b.

    In short, I think R1b-L23 arrived in Western Europe with Indo-European languages sometime in the 4th-3rd millennia BC and that there was no R1b in the Isles before the Bell Beaker people (unless some very few R1b-V88 got there in the Neolithic from Spain and left no y lines that survived).
    Last edited by rms2; 03-17-2015 at 11:50 AM.

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    Some of these west European surnames may have been in western Europe before the L11+ expansions from Central Europe. The first is R1b1*, and the second R1a*

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Thanks RMS.
    I am very familiar with what you write from the numerous other threads. I am interested in discussing the questions I raised.
    For example, if we assume that Early passage graves are I2a1 / I2a2 DNA c3,900-3,600BCE (Haak 2015) then who decided to pull down existing monuments c.3000BCE and erect new monuments with solar alignments?
    Is it the same I2a1 / I2a2 people deciding it was time for a change? Was it Jean's Stelae people? Was it the cremation people and if so what was their DNA (obvious problems there). Was it Coons mix of 'new' dinaric brachycephals with 'existing' Mediterranean types? If so, what was their DNA?
    At least we know the c3000BCE monuments did not erect themselves. So who did??

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Some of these west European surnames may have been in western Europe before the L11+ expansions from Central Europe. The first is R1b1*, and the second R1a*

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
    Interesting spread of R-P25. anyone know how reliable the * status is of those in these FTDNA projects?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    1. a cremation trail?
    Background -
    When I look at L21, U152 and, to a lesser extent, DF27 in the Bronze Age I see people who are steeped in a cremation tradition. This seems odd because our P312 Beakers were steeped in the single grave tradition - very closely related to Corded traditions.

    The Neolithic Cremation 'trail'
    For example, we can find cremation documented in the Tisza-Polgar culture and Baden culture. Kosco and Videiko (1995 - Origin of Neolithic and Eneolithic Cremation Rites in Europe) talk of the Northern Model of cremation and movement of cremation south into the Danube and into the Balkans.

    Childe (1950 Prehistoric Migrations in Europe) links the origins of cremation back to eastern Turkey. he also makes links to copper prospectors. On page 114/5 he states about Baden settlements [I]"On the other hand several cases of cremation have been reported. ....Accordingly, Baden societies may have contained Anatolian prospectors attracted by the ores of central Europe
    On the whole, a change of burial right is a very good sign of a new people arriving, but we know of at least two instances in historic times where people changed burial rite without migration:

    1. the adoption of Christianity;
    2. the modern change to cremation by personal choice, and perhaps as an acknowledgement of rising populations and pressure on land use.


    So a surer guide to migration is a complete new cultural package arriving, including burial rite. But best of all is ancient DNA. The latter shows us that there is no change of population in Central Europe between Bell Beaker and Urnfield. The big changes in population in Europe come with

    1. The arrival of farming. Reich estimated a 60% - 100% population replacement.
    2. 2500 BC steppe pastoralists, who represent 60% - 80% replacement, according to Prof. Reich.


    Childe was an archaeologist of great brilliance, but he was prone to seeing the Near East as the origin of every novelty. He was absolutely right in the case of agriculture and metallurgy, but not necessarily right on every lesser matter. From the 1970s onwards his ideas were under attack by anti-migrationists who preferred to stress continuity and perceive local creativity. Kosco and Videiko 1995 are in that tradition and want to throw out an origin for cremation in the Near East/Anatolia. Frankly I don't think it is really significant where the first cremation took place. As they say, it pops up (though rarely) even before agriculture. They guess that it could have been a punishment. I'd guess that it could have sprung from necessity in winter, with ground too hard to dig. The important thing for the origins of Urnfield is the specific type of rite. To quote myself:

    Two of the Middle Bronze Age cultures of Hungary favoured cremation, but only one of them placed a capped burial urn in a pit. That was the Vatya culture of sheep-breeders living in tell settlements along the Danube. These were well-placed for trading, as well as having good grazing land nearby. So the idea could easily have travelled up the Danube to the trading nexus at its head. From there it spread west and north into Germany and Poland and south into Italy. Finally it moved into France and part of Spain. There was also a transition to cremation burial in Scandinavia and the British Isles in the Late Bronze Age, but without the vast cemeteries of Continental Europe.
    • Sørensen, M.L.S. and Rebay-Salisbury, K. 2008. Landscapes of the body: burials of the Middle Bronze Age in Hungary, European Journal of Archaeology, 11 (1), 49-74.
    • Timothy Champion, Clive Gamble, Stephen Shennan, Alisdair Whittle, Prehistoric Europe (2009), chapter 9: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false

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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    Interesting spread of R-P25. anyone know how reliable the * status is of those in these FTDNA projects?
    Very reliable for the ones who are grouped. There tend to be many ineligble participants as part of Ungrouped sections.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Thanks Jean,
    My point is that cremation was in the Isles before Beaker arrived. In the early and middle Bronze Age there appears to be 'battles of ideology' between the Beaker single grave burials under barrows and the cremations under barrows - clearly two different groups of people. cremation won out and dominated in the Middle Bronze Age - well before the arrival of Urnfield groups.
    If we didn't know Beaker was P312 it would be a fair conclusion that Beaker was a passing fad and the line of people became extinct. Now that clearly is not the case. Unless Beaker is a line of P312 that did become extinct and other P312 lines who were cremation based went on to dominate. I very much doubt that scenario but the fact is the Late Neolithic and Bronze age story in the Isles is complex. I think that we are very far from having the complete answer yet.

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