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Thread: Pre-Beaker R1b in the Isles - can we rule it out?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The question I would ask is: Is there any real good reason to rule in R1b?

    Honestly, I can't see one.
    Well I can see no good reason to rule in any other type of DNA - unless you can give me one. Thats why I asked the question.

  2. #22
    I think Haak et al. didn't test V88 on purpose, or they did and didn't put in on the paper, because it would put a dent on their East-West migration of R1b theory (which I agree with nonetheless). They specifically mentioned that the R1b in neolithic Spain was a hindrance to this theory, even though the plausibility of a West-East theory is troublesome.

    I really find it hard to believe they would spend all these resources and thousands (if not millions?) of dollars on this project, and not test for V88. I personally think it was a dead branch, but not V88. The writers of the paper probably didn't mention it on purpose to make readers assume it was V88.
    Last edited by Augustus; 03-17-2015 at 07:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    Who "re-arranged the monuments" at about 3000BCE?
    Neolithic farmers who were getting worried about the economy. Where the belief system is that the proper kind of worship will bring rewards from the gods, one possible response to natural calamity such as drought or disease is to throw ever more fervour into building more or greater monuments in the hope that supernatural aid will be forthcoming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Let's call the two BB groups 'Atlantic' and 'Rhine' for the routes of arrival. Why do you think that the Atlantic group adopted cremation? That runs counter to the summary you just gave:



    So: Altantic= inhumation; Rhine = cremation (at least in this small part of England, itself only part of the vast BB territory).
    The Amesbury Archer was not cremated. Are you suggesting he came from the Atlantic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    If you are talking about the Neolithic farmers of Britain (for whom cremation was just one option), they were in decline before the arrival of BB. Cereal farming had ceased. The BB people seem to have gradually overtaken the remainder numerically, as they had a more efficient economy and could therefore out-breed the earlier farmers.
    When BB arrived in Wessex there were thousands of people gathering annually at Durrington Walls. They were feasting and showing signs that they were not an agricultural community in decline - but a sun worshiping group with energy to spare to rebuild monuments. They seemed to welcome the Beaker people as if they were distant relations? Was there an affinity that was more than 'being impressed with metalworking bling'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustus View Post
    I think Haak et al. didn't test V88 on purpose, or they did and didn't put in on the paper, because it would put a dent on their East-West migration of R1b theory (which I agree with nonetheless). They specifically mentioned that the R1b in neolithic Spain was a hindrance to this theory, even though the plausibility of a West-East theory is troublesome.

    I really find it hard to believe they would spend all these resources and thousands (if not millions?) of dollars on this project, and not test for V88. I personally think it was a dead branch, but not V88.
    They tested for the entire panoply of SNPs on ISOGG's Tree as of March 2013 (if I recall the cut-off date correctly) but did not get a read for V88. In other words, Els Trocs could be V88+ (it probably is), but we don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    Well I can see no good reason to rule in any other type of DNA - unless you can give me one. Thats why I asked the question.
    But you offer no good reason to rule in R1b. There are plenty of reasons to rule it out. I cited a number of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustus View Post
    I think Haak et al. didn't test V88 on purpose, or they did and didn't put in on the paper, because it would put a dent on their East-West migration of R1b theory.
    That is utter nonsense as well as libellous. The discovery that the R1b in Neolithic Spain was V88 would actually support the theory of the east-west migration of R1b, by showing that this Neolithic R1b was of a separate lineage from the one that spread east to west in the Copper Age. It would have been much neater for them to have a V88+ for that sample. They apparently tested for it, without a result.
    Last edited by Jean M; 03-17-2015 at 07:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustus View Post
    I think Haak et al. didn't test V88 on purpose, or they did and didn't put in on the paper, because it would put a dent on their East-West migration of R1b theory (which I agree with nonetheless). They specifically mentioned that the R1b in neolithic Spain was a hindrance to this theory, even though the plausibility of a West-East theory is troublesome.

    I really find it hard to believe they would spend all these resources and thousands (if not millions?) of dollars on this project, and not test for V88. I personally think it was a dead branch, but not V88. The writers of the paper probably didn't mention it on purpose to make readers assume it was V88.
    You do realize that you are seriously insulting the authors of the paper, bordering on libel? Wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    The Amesbury Archer was not cremated. Are you suggesting he came from the Atlantic?
    No I'm not. I'm saying that cremation was one option for cadaver disposal among the many BB migrants from the Carpathian Basin down the Rhine. Cremation was not the most popular burial rite across the whole region into which that Rhine stream fed. Far from it. This story you described seems to be a local phenomenon, perhaps affecting a couple of families. I'm taking your word that it happened at all, not having access to the description on which you set such store.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    When BB arrived in Wessex there were thousands of people gathering annually at Durrington Walls. They were feasting and showing signs that they were not an agricultural community in decline - but a sun worshiping group with energy to spare to rebuild monuments. They seemed to welcome the Beaker people as if they were distant relations? Was there an affinity that was more than 'being impressed with metalworking bling'?
    Well I can see what you would like the answer to be. Whenever I like an answer, I ask myself why I like it. We humans can't help being biased, but we can try to become aware of our biases. Why exactly would Britain be different from the Continent in respect of the general pattern of population change?
    Last edited by Jean M; 03-17-2015 at 07:41 PM.

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