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Thread: I am Rb1 but can I find my subclade without further testing?

  1. #1
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    I am Rb1 but can I find my subclade without further testing?

    In 2005, I submitted my swab to Nat Geographic and got the result - Rb1 (M343).

    Unfortunately I have lost my ID, so I can't participate in any further studies without getting a new test done.

    As I have a printout and the 12 STRs identified, I have tried to find out my subclade but without success.

    I tried an online predictor but all this told me was that I am Rb1.

    So a two fold question:

    - do I have enough information to find out my subclade?

    - if not, what is the best test; my interest lies in the area of historical movement of peoples with my genetic make-up and not developing my family tree.

    On my father's side, there are a lot of Irish and I have identified a patriarchal line to 1813, Waterford, Ireland. On my mother's they are all pure English - English surnames to be exact (within a remote part of the Pennine of 10 to 20 miles) ever since 1705 (on unbroken matriarch to matriarch line).

    Happy to publish my STRs if this aids the response.

    Thanks for any help

  2. #2
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    Celt/German/Iberian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF27
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    U5b2a2b1

    Germany Imperial United Kingdom Norway Spain
    You can look for 12-STR matches in Ireland, and whatever R1b subclade they have you may also have. Besides that there's no way to find what subclade you are without further testing. The vast majority of Irish R1b is in the subclade L21.

  3. #3
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    United States Grand Union United Kingdom Ireland France Germany
    A 12 marker test is minimal and will give you almost no information of value. Most 12 marker matches break down at the 25 marker level and beyond. I match 7 Pierce's 100% at 12 markers and none at 25.

    You'll need further testing to tell you much of anything I'm afraid. 23andME will give you more general information, such as Y and mt haplogroups and admixture. FamilyTreeDNA is good for deeper testing of specific lines (Paternal or Maternal). Unfortunately knowing the migrations of your ancestors requires a measure of fleshing out your family tree, especially with an R1b haplotype.
    Last edited by Alpine Hominin; 03-23-2015 at 10:40 PM.
    FTDNA: 249550
    Ysearch: 4U6FY

  4. #4
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    Thanks to both for your replies - I confess I am really at sea here. Mr Alpine - You have 12 makers and a good fit, add a further 13 and nothing fits, if I understand you correctly.

    With the 12 marker and following Krefter's advice L11 seems the nearest so far - perfect for the first seven but drifts a bit for the last five.

    So it looks like I will need to dig into my pocket. Problem is that there are so many tests even within each offering - would 64 markers on the Family Tree be a good one to choose?

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Peccavi For This Useful Post:

     Alpine Hominin (03-28-2015)

  6. #5
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    I recommend the 67 marker Y-DNA test from Family Tree DNA if you can afford it. If that is too expensive, the 37 marker Y-DNA test is a pretty decent alternative. 37 markers is usually (but not always) enough to identify your subclade with reasonable confidence. 67 markers will provide even more confidence of your subclade, and if you get any surname matches, 67 markers will do a better job of estimating how closely related they are. In the event that one of these tests isn't sufficient to identify your subclade with confidence (which is a slight possibility), then you can follow it up later with a $39 SNP test to nail it down for sure.
    Last edited by miiser; 03-24-2015 at 12:31 AM.

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     Alpine Hominin (03-28-2015)

  8. #6
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    As others have said, 12 markers are not very useful for the purpose of haplogroup prediction, and getting a 67 or 37 marker test is recommended, but meanwhile you could have a play with this predictor to get an idea of probabilities:

    http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/

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     Alpine Hominin (03-28-2015)

  10. #7
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    Hello Group,

    I came across this post and was hoping you could help me with a similar issue.

    I originally participated in the Nat. Geo Genome project 1.0 and was classified as a R-M343. I then transferred my results to Familytreedna and recently upgraded and purchased a 67 marker Y-DNA STR test. I am still only shown as a M269 on the family tree site after my 67 marker test.

    Unfortunately, I am disappointed with the results. This is pretty complicated stuff and I really didn't learn anything new after spending hundreds of dollars. I was hoping to get deeper on my haplogroup three and subclade. I am just starting now to learn the difference between STR and SNPs and it seems like I just wasted a bunch of money.

    My recent ancestry is 100% Polish (Both Parents and all 4 grandparents). However, I am less interested in finding living or recently deceased relatives than knowing about my my paternal lineage in regards to haplogroup, subclade, etc.

    I was wondering if you could help me or if you could provide any links to tools that might be able to use my 67 marker STR data to predict SNPs, deeper Haplogroup, subclades, etc. Any and all relevant advice, thoughts, links, etc. would be greatly appreciated. I hope to hear back from you.

    Best Regards,

    Jack

  11. #8
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    Here is a copy of my results, in case it is helpful.

    My_FTDNA_Y_DNA_STR_Certificate.jpg

  12. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhhaze View Post
    Hello Group,

    I came across this post and was hoping you could help me with a similar issue.

    I originally participated in the Nat. Geo Genome project 1.0 and was classified as a R-M343. I then transferred my results to Familytreedna and recently upgraded and purchased a 67 marker Y-DNA STR test. I am still only shown as a M269 on the family tree site after my 67 marker test.

    Unfortunately, I am disappointed with the results. This is pretty complicated stuff and I really didn't learn anything new after spending hundreds of dollars. I was hoping to get deeper on my haplogroup three and subclade. I am just starting now to learn the difference between STR and SNPs and it seems like I just wasted a bunch of money.

    My recent ancestry is 100% Polish (Both Parents and all 4 grandparents). However, I am less interested in finding living or recently deceased relatives than knowing about my my paternal lineage in regards to haplogroup, subclade, etc.

    I was wondering if you could help me or if you could provide any links to tools that might be able to use my 67 marker STR data to predict SNPs, deeper Haplogroup, subclades, etc. Any and all relevant advice, thoughts, links, etc. would be greatly appreciated. I hope to hear back from you.

    Best Regards,

    Jack
    Quote Originally Posted by jhhaze View Post
    Here is a copy of my results, in case it is helpful.

    My_FTDNA_Y_DNA_STR_Certificate.jpg
    Hello Jack and welcome to Anthrogenica,

    You have not wasted a dime. 67 STRs are essential even if you do know your haplogroup and clade. It's a must and good science to confirm your haplgroup with SNP testing because of STR convergence within the huge R1b-M269 haplogroup. A good mid-point for phylogenetic bracketing when predicted R1b-M269 are SNPs U106 and P312. Upstream or downstream of those two SNPs will tell you what direction to go. You are probably not U106+ because of your DYS492=12, but you never know because SNPs and STRs are coinicidental of each other. Start out with P312 and see what happens.

    If you can do it, next generation sequencing (NGS) testing is the way to go. There is the BIG Y test from Family Tree DNA and the Y-Prime and Y-Elite tests from Full Genomes Corporation. You will know your haplogroup branch down to the twig level and find a bunch of new novel SNPs for future tester to compare too.

    Please join the R R1b ALL Subclades gateway project more specific advice.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    Pretty sure they will want you to join up at the Polish FTDNA project too. They are pretty good with SNP advice too.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Joe B; 06-18-2015 at 09:31 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

  13. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Hello Jack and welcome to Anthrogenica,

    You have not wasted a dime. 67 STRs are essential even if you do know your haplogroup and clade. It's a must and good science to confirm your haplgroup with SNP testing because of STR convergence within the huge R1b-M269 haplogroup. A good mid-point for phylogenetic bracketing within R1b-M269 are SNPs U106 and P312. Upstream or downstream of those two SNPs will tell you what direction to go. You are probably not U106+ because of your DYS492=12, but you never know because SNPs and STRs are coinicidental of each other. Start out with P312 and see what happens. If you can do it, next generation sequencing (NGS) testing is the way to go. You will find your haplogroup branch down to the twig level and find a bunch of new novel SNPs for future tester to compare too.

    Please join the R R1b ALL Subclades gateway project more specific advice.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    Thanks for the response...

    So, let me see/know if I have this correct? (Also, thank you for being so patient with a newbie).

    1. My 67 Marker test results cannot be used and input into a tool to predict a more detailed haplogroup and subclade. However, My DYS492=12, while not conclusive, is a strong indicator that I may be P312 and not U106+.

    2. If I would have been smarter I would have used the $200+ I spent on the 67 STR test and used it towards a next generation sequencing (NGS) test, which would have told me everything in the 67 STR test, along with my exact subclass? Is that the $575 test on Family Tree DNA that they call Big Y? Unfortunately, that may be a bit out of my price range for now, but are you saying that I can order a test to only test whether or not I have P312 and that can help a little bit with getting me closer to my sub-clade?

    3. How far back would I have to go to determine what ancient civilization my paternal side belonged to like the Celts, Germanic tribes, etc. and can that be determined with a test yet? My surname is Hejza, which is likely the Polish spelling of a German surname like Hess, Heise, Hesse, etc. It would be interesting to determine if I have Germanic indicators in my YDNA STPs, even though most of the information that I have received thus far is pointing to England (which is super interesting)

    4. Would I benefit from Nat. Geo 2.0 genome product at all?

    5. The only new results I found from my 67-marker Family Tree DNA test were that I have, no 67 marker matches, 1 37 marker match (distance 3) and 3 25-marker matches (1 distance 1 and 2 distance 2s). I can see the names, but, unfortunately, I have not found a way to contact these matches to see if I can uncover anything useful.

    Again, thank you for your response and advice.

    Kind Regards,

    Jack

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