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Thread: Normans

  1. #1
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    Normans

    Hi, does anyone know if the Haplogroups of the Normans have been determined? If I remember my history right, weren't the Normans descendants of the Norse? If so, then they should match other known Norse groups like L448 and such, correct?

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  3. #2
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    "Hunt for Viking DNA in Normandy riles anti-racism campaigners who fear the results could contribute to increasing xenophobia in France"

    "It’s been more than 1,200 years since the Scandinavian longships first invaded Western Europe – but France remains scared of Vikings.

    A study of the DNA of a handful of rural Normans by a British academic team searching for Viking “roots” has been condemned by anti-racist campaigners and some French academics..."

    more at

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...-10327258.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by ÁNLEIFR View Post
    Hi, does anyone know if the Haplogroups of the Normans have been determined? If I remember my history right, weren't the Normans descendants of the Norse? If so, then they should match other known Norse groups like L448 and such, correct?
    LivingDNA:

    GB and Ire 98.5%
    South Germanic 1.5%


    Ancestry:

    Eng, Wales & NW Euro 50%
    North Eng, Ire and Scot 39%
    Norway 5%
    Sweden 4%
    Germanic Europe 2%

    NatGen:

    42% North Euro
    37% Mediterranean
    19% SW Asian

    Known ancestral lines:

    U152: BY3644 @ Vallum Aelium
    H1c3b Salford (mother)
    U4a3a Biddick, Durham (pat grandfather's mother)
    U198 Stanhope, Durham (pat gg grandfather)
    K1a-T195C! Wigan, Lancs (pat grandmother)

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    Quote Originally Posted by J1 DYS388=13 View Post
    "Hunt for Viking DNA in Normandy riles anti-racism campaigners who fear the results could contribute to increasing xenophobia in France"

    "It’s been more than 1,200 years since the Scandinavian longships first invaded Western Europe – but France remains scared of Vikings.

    A study of the DNA of a handful of rural Normans by a British academic team searching for Viking “roots” has been condemned by anti-racist campaigners and some French academics..."

    more at

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...-10327258.html
    What exactly in the blue hell do Vikings have to do with Jews?

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    I was interested to see someone doing a study regarding Vikings in Normandy. I recently was in contact with a 23andMe match of my mother's brother who could document the family lineage back to a Norman family who moved over to London in the 1500s. My great-great-great grandfather and his ancestor a few generations back were brothers. The Y-DNA was I1, like so many other family lineages which made me think we might have some Viking Norman ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ÁNLEIFR View Post
    If I remember my history right, weren't the Normans descendants of the Norse?
    Partly. Viking settlers mixed with local people when they arrived in what is now Normandy. The armies of William I included non-Normans as well. So the percentage of Viking-origin Y-DNA in the "Norman" barons and manorial lords of post 1066 England is hard to estimate. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/normans.shtml

    A brief survey of Norman-French surnames in Scotland found little or no R1a1a, seen as a Norse marker. Should we expect it? The army that William the Conqueror brought to Britain included Bretons, Flemings and French, as well as his own Norman barons and their men. The Normans themselves were a mixture. The Germanic Franks had imposed their control on the Gallo-Roman people of Gaul as the Roman Empire crumbled in the West. They gave their name to France, but did not settle in sufficient numbers to change the Romance language to a Germanic one. Nor did the Vikings who came after them. In the reign of Charles the Simple (898-929), a band of Vikings under Rollo settled in the Lower Seine area. In 911 the Franks managed to prevent Rollo taking Paris and Chartres. They took the opportunity to make a treaty ceding territory around the Seine to Rollo, in return for Rollo's acknowledgement of Charles as his feudal lord. In 924 Rollo received a further grant of Maine and the Bessin. By 933 the Duchy of Normandy had enlarged to include the Cotentin peninsula. So the Duchy by then covered roughly the area of modern Normandy.

    To gain acceptance into the Kingdom of the Franks, Rollo agreed to convert to Christianity. In 911 he contracted a marriage with the daughter of Charles the Simple. His successors William Longsword and Richard I also made political unions. Meanwhile no doubt a good deal of mixing went on among their followers and local women, though some Scandinavian women appear to have settled in Normandy. If the children of Vikings were raised by French-speaking mothers, it is not surprising that Old Norse vanished in Normandy over just the few generations between Rollo and William the Conqueror. The Normans who arrived in England in 1066 spoke Norman French and were culturally homogeneous, whether or not they had a Viking among their ancestors. This is not to say that no R1a1a arrived with the Normans. As we shall see, some appears among the bearers of at least one Norman name. Haplogroup I1 may also be a signal of the Viking element in the Normans. Yet the mass of fighting men who clashed with the English at the Battle of Hastings were a mixed bunch.
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-18-2015 at 02:01 PM.

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Partly. Viking settlers mixed with local people when they arrived in what is now Normandy. The armies of William I included non-Normans as well. So the percentage of Viking-origin Y-DNA in the "Norman" barons and manorial lords of post 1066 England is hard to estimate. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/normans.shtml
    Without forgetting an important thing, Scandinavians were often polygamous,that was even the case for the ducal family.

    The first dukes were the sons of concubines, the cause of much war in the Duchy, and this until William the Conqueror (Guillaume le Batard, his first name)
    Last edited by Helgenes50; 06-18-2015 at 02:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helgenes50 View Post
    Without forgetting one important thing, Scandinavians were often polygamous,that was even the case for the ducal family. The first dukes were the sons of concubines, the cause of much war in the Duchy, and this until William the Conqueror (Guillaume le Batard, his first name)
    Yes indeed, and that helps to explain the loss of the Norse language in favour of French. But it would not affect the Y-DNA line. William the Bastard was the descendant of Rollo in the direct male line.

    What I suspect is that many of his followers did not have that direct male-line descent from a Viking.
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-18-2015 at 02:24 PM.

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  16. #9
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    We have a surname project for one of the prominent Anglo-Norman Irish families, the Barrys. There are two subgroups that may be directly descended from the men who accompanied William to Normandy and subsequently received grants of land in Wales before participating in the 12th century Anglo-Welsh invasion of Ireland. The smaller is in haplogroup I1 while the larger, and probably the more likely to be related to the original Barrys, is U152>L2>Z49. In August we will be taking samples from the remains of one of the Earls of Barrymore and this may provide additional information. See:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

    and

    https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/

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  18. #10
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    About the (so-called) anti-racists campaigns against the University of Leicester, you'll find in the french subforum a letter by the main anti-racist leader in lower-Normandy. Of course it's in french, as I did'nt find the courage to translate it. Anyway, reading it is useful only for the specialists of the french madness.
    About the Normans, in wikipedia :"The descendants of Rollo and his followers adopted the local Gallo-Romance language and intermarried with the area's original inhabitants. They became the Normans – a Norman-speaking mixture of Scandinavians, Hiberno-Norse, Orcadians, Anglo-Danish, Saxons and indigenous Franks and Gauls." Well seen.
    Last edited by anglesqueville; 06-18-2015 at 02:55 PM.

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