Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 59

Thread: Russian and Polish R1a-Z93*

  1. #1
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,718
    Sex

    Russian and Polish R1a-Z93*

    YFull's new haplotree shows 3 examples of R1a-Z93* . Two of them are Russian, one Polish. Is it possible that Z93 was born in Eastern Europe?

  2. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     AJL (06-17-2015),  DMXX (03-28-2015),  Dr_McNinja (03-30-2015),  Jenny (05-01-2015),  leonardo (03-29-2015),  Mamluk (03-31-2015),  Michał (03-29-2015),  parasar (03-29-2015),  paulgill (06-17-2015),  Piquerobi (06-17-2015),  surbakhunWeesste (03-29-2015),  Táltos (03-29-2015),  Tomenable (03-28-2016)

  3. #2
    It almost certainly did. I wonder if some Z93+ started migrating east around 3500 BC though. There isn't really anything that would have prevented it from crossing the Urals. Maybe this explains the Z93* near the Altai while the the bulk of Z93+ migrated east later with Poltavka and maybe Abashevo.

    Now the question is where did Z93+ ancestor Z645+ arise? The Don/Donets region sounds good to me.

    Have you seen this map that David linked to?

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...hZbFhfUVU/view

    I wonder what those three arrows represent. One possibility is (from west to east) U106, CTS4385 and R1a-Z283. But given the age of Corded Ware, Z284, pre M458, and Z280+ makes sense too. (also does Afanasievo seems smaller than usual?

  4. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to newtoboard For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-29-2015),  Krefter (11-06-2015),  leonardo (03-29-2015),  lgmayka (03-30-2015),  Michał (03-29-2015),  paulgill (06-19-2015),  surbakhunWeesste (03-29-2015)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,815
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Is it possible that Z93 was born in Eastern Europe?
    I agree with newtoboard that this is definitely the most likely option (based on what we know about the modern and ancient distribution of different subclades of R1a), and this has been already discussed in at least two earlier threads (1, 2). Also, the most likely homeland for the parental clades Z645 and M417 should also be placed somewhere in Eastern Europe (especially when taking into account the recent paper by Chekunova et al. about aDNA from Western Russia), although I wouldn't dare to suggest an exact location.

  6. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-29-2015),  AJL (06-17-2015),  leonardo (03-29-2015),  lgmayka (03-30-2015),  parasar (03-29-2015)

  7. #4
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,756

    I have a feeling that by the M417 timeframe there already had been contact with South Asia. So I do not think based on the ancient dna finds we have had so far that M417, Z645, Z283 or Z93 were necessarily born in eastern Europe.

    Essentially I do not think (below) this has been supported by Haak et al.
    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    Soon we will learn from aDNA studies about Y-DNA on the steppe and around the steppe.
    Here is my prediction:

  8. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     AJL (06-17-2015),  Jenny (05-01-2015),  Michał (03-29-2015),  paulgill (06-17-2015)

  9. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I have a feeling that by the M417 timeframe there already had been contact with South Asia. So I do not think based on the ancient dna finds we have had so far that M417, Z645, Z283 or Z93 were necessarily born in eastern Europe.

    Essentially I do not think (below) this has been supported by Haak et al.
    I think there is a pretty decent chance I0242, I0243, I0245, I0250 , and I0252 from the Haak study were R1a-Z93+. Unfortunately DNA wasn't able to be extracted. I hope another lab gives it another shot in the future.

  10. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,815
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Essentially I do not think (below) this has been supported by Haak et al.
    I agree with you that this hypothetical Yamna-related expansion of R1a from the steppe has not been supported by Haak et al. (nor definitely ruled out, as rightly pointed out by many forumers). However, we need to keep in mind that the Pontic-Caspian steppe is only a (smaller) part of Eastern Europe, and it was the forest zone (and not the steppe zone) where R1a was found by Chekunova et al. in samples dated to about 4000 BC, 2500 BC and 900-400 BC.

  11. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-29-2015),  AJL (06-17-2015),  George (11-08-2015),  Gravetto-Danubian (11-08-2015),  lgmayka (03-30-2015),  newtoboard (03-29-2015),  paulgill (06-19-2015),  Tomenable (06-19-2015)

  12. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I have a feeling that by the M417 timeframe there already had been contact with South Asia. So I do not think based on the ancient dna finds we have had so far that M417, Z645, Z283 or Z93 were necessarily born in eastern Europe.

    Essentially I do not think (below) this has been supported by Haak et al.
    What happened to the NW European origin of R1a? The fact of the matter is at the current time the majority of R1a is Z645. We should expect Z283+ clades in the forest steppe and forest zone and Z93+ clades in the forest steppe and steppe zone. So far nothing in aDNA has ruled out that hypothesis unless one goes down the path of extrapolating R1b all the way down the Volga and Ural river because R1b was found at Samara and Orenberg. We have y DNA from one small corner of Yamnaya so R1a and other R1b clades (and non R1 clades) will likely be found in the future.

  13. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I agree with you that this hypothetical Yamna-related expansion of R1a from the steppe has not been supported by Haak et al. (nor definitely ruled out, as rightly pointed out by many forumers). However, we need to keep in mind that the Pontic-Caspian steppe is only a (smaller) part of Eastern Europe, and it was the forest zone (and not the steppe zone) where R1a was found by Chekunova et al. in samples dated to about 4000 BC, 2500 BC and 900-400 BC.
    How should we interpret those R1a clades? Are they possibly ancestral to modern R1a? Which clades? Probably not Z645? There was N1c among them so does that rule out them being the R1a source population in most of Europe and all of Asia?

    Also it looks like the Northern clades are older. Does that suggest the newer clades evolved in situ on a hypothetical migration of R1a from the north to the south? Or does that suggest there was continuous migration of R1a from the south to the north? So the older clades will be found in the north because they were traveling while newer clades were born to the south and migrated north.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to newtoboard For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-31-2015),  paulgill (06-19-2015)

  15. #9
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,756

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    What happened to the NW European origin of R1a? The fact of the matter is at the current time the majority of R1a is Z645. We should expect Z283+ clades in the forest steppe and forest zone and Z93+ clades in the forest steppe and steppe zone. So far nothing in aDNA has ruled out that hypothesis unless one goes down the path of extrapolating R1b all the way down the Volga and Ural river because R1b was found at Samara and Orenberg. We have y DNA from one small corner of Yamnaya so R1a and other R1b clades (and non R1 clades) will likely be found in the future.
    I had given up on that but R1a's presence in Upper Dvina tells me that we cannot be 100% certain.

    Anyway, it appears that there was good mobility in Upper/Inner Eurasia and we need not put R1a types - M17, M417, Z645 etc together geographically, just M417 downstream, and especially Z645, Z283 and Z93. The Karelia R1a doesn't show much South Asian affinity, if any, but Corded Ware R1a does [ "This ancestry appears in Central Europe for the first time in our series with the Corded Ware around 2,500 BCE"].

    To resolve this I think we need ancient DNA from the Oxus region.
    Last edited by parasar; 03-30-2015 at 12:23 PM. Reason: does to doesn't

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     paulgill (06-17-2015)

  17. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,815
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    How should we interpret those R1a clades? Are they possibly ancestral to modern R1a? Which clades? Probably not Z645? There was N1c among them so does that rule out them being the R1a source population in most of Europe and all of Asia?
    We don’t have enough data to ascribe those ancient R1a results to specific subclades under M459 (in the case of the Karelian sample) or under M17 (in the case of the Upper Dvina samples), although I would expect that the youngest of them (ie. those dated to 900-400 BC) were most likely M417+, and probably M417>Z645>Z283>Z282(>Z280?).


    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Also it looks like the Northern clades are older. Does that suggest the newer clades evolved in situ on a hypothetical migration of R1a from the north to the south? Or does that suggest there was continuous migration of R1a from the south to the north? So the older clades will be found in the north because they were traveling while newer clades were born to the south and migrated north.
    Here is a scenario that (currently) seems most likely to me.

    The fact that the hypothetical clade “R1a2” (R1a-S12874?) has been found (so far) only among the modern Middle Easterners (cluster 2b, named M420-B1 in our project) and among the Western Europeans (clusters 1 and 2a, or M420-A and M420-B2, respectively) but not in Eastern Europe (!) suggests that R1a* (R1a-M420*) was initially present somewhere on the southern edge of Eastern Europe, with R1a1 (R1a-M459) moving subsequently north towards the forest-steppe zone, and with R1a2 being left on the steppe and (much more recently) partially incorporated into the expanding R1b-rich population before ultimately migrating with those R1b-rich tribes either to Central/Western Europe (along with R1b-L51 and/or R1a-Z2103?) or to the Middle East (with R1b-Z2103?).

    After dominating the forest-steppe zone, the R1a-M459 clade split in two major branches, with R1a1a (R1a-M17/M198) occupying the southern part of the “R1a-M459 territory”, and with R1a1b (R1a-YP1272 or rather its unknown parent clade) dominating the Northern R1a-M459 population (with some subclades migrating much further north, hence their presence in ancient Karelia, and this is also consistent with modern R1a-YP1272 being still found in Eastern Europe, including Russia and Belarus/Poland).

    While R1a-M17/M198 became (at some point, about 7000-5000 BC?) a dominant R1a clade in the entire forest-steppe zone, some of its subclades were migrating north towards the forest zone (hence Chekunova was able to find R1a-M17 on the Upper Dvina as early as 4000 BC (6000 BP), while some other subclades (like YP1051) were much more likely to penetrate the steppe territory (where R1a2 was already present) and then merge with the incoming R1b-rich population, thus finally landing up in Western Europe, similarly to their above-mentioned distant relatives from clade “R1a2” (or rather from its Western European sublineages 1 and 2a).

    In the next stage, the emerging M417 subclade under M17/M198 became a dominant R1a group in the forest-steppe zone (in a northern part of Dnieper-Donets II?), and it was probably at this very moment (around 5000-4500 BC) when the intensive contacts with the expanding R1b-L23 populations resulted in the IE-ization of R1a-M417 (which was also the fate of their nearly extinct southern relatives from R1a2 and R1a-YP1051). R1a-M417 became a leading Y-DNA haplogroup in the IE-speaking Dnieper-Donets III culture (located north of Sredny Stog) that was subsequently transformed into the Middle-Dnieper culture, likely encompassing both major subclades of R1a-M417 (ie. CTS4385 and Z645). The Middle Dnieper culture was a center of the subsequent R1a expansion towards west (CTS4385), north-west (Z283) and east or south-east (Z93 and Z282*-A), which was likely related to the expansion of Corded Ware (including Fatyanovo>Abashevo) and probably also to the expansion of the Catacomb culture that strongly influenced the Late Yamna populations.

    Please keep in mind that all above is very speculative, so I can imagine many alternative scenarios that cannot be ruled out.

  18. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-31-2015),  Artmar (03-31-2015),  parasar (03-30-2015),  paulgill (06-19-2015),  Theramster (09-03-2016)

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. 1/2 Russian 1/2 Portuguese Gedmatch
    By Bruma in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 10-13-2018, 06:08 PM
  2. Gedmatch genesis - Polish/Estonian Polish matches
    By firemonkey in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-29-2017, 07:10 PM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-06-2016, 07:50 PM
  4. Russian/Siberian ancestry!
    By Herb. in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-14-2016, 09:39 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •