Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2101112
Results 111 to 118 of 118

Thread: Human Action Could Affect Which aDNA We Find

  1. #111
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,248
    Sex
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Ethnicity
    Iberian+Canary Islander
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z279(xM153)
    mtDNA (M)
    L2a1a3c

    United States of America Spain Basque Galicia Portugal Cuba
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Like all other results, we shouldn't be excluding an eastern origin of European LP simply on the basis it wasn't found among the scant 7 Yamnaya samples we have - which has also been stated several times of not being direct ancestors of the Bell Beaker male data.
    I agree, I was simply pointing out the current state of knowledge based on the data that we have at hand, which is far from conclusive. It is interesting nonetheless that the Treilles population which is contemporaneous with SJAPL was completely lactose intolerant in 20+ remains, yet on SJAPL there was LP in 27% of the samples.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to jeanL For This Useful Post:

     ADW_1981 (04-22-2015)

  3. #112
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I know the Lichtenstein Cave remains are comparatively young (circa 1,000 BC), but it is interesting that there some of the I2a's and the two R1a's were the ones who were LP. The one R1b guy was LI.
    Last edited by rms2; 04-22-2015 at 12:58 AM.

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-22-2015),  Christina (04-25-2015),  jeanL (04-22-2015),  Michał (04-29-2015)

  5. #113
    Registered Users
    Posts
    982
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2a1

    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    Humility is accepting other people's positions in a respectful way, and understanding your own limitations. I'm sorry but I wasn't tracking every poster's positions in 2008. My point, which you chose to ignore, is that the orthodoxy in aDNA changes rapidly. What the masses are sure about one day becomes a ridiculed theory within 5 years. And that brings me right back to my point about having a little humility.
    I agree with your point about humility but I'd describe it as the importance of understanding and respecting the scientific method. Any good scientist will look especially for data that shows their theory to be false or flawed. Of course there are examples of both academics and amateurs who selectively sift the data looking only for the bits that support their pet theory and ignoring everything else.

    I think that was the case until recently among some academics who concluded that R1b and mtDNA H originated in Paleolithic Europe simply because they were convinced that modern population distributions were largely unaffected by migration. It was amateurs including some members of this forum who first estimated subclade ages and analysed diversity of older branches of the tree and proposed that modern European descend largely from migrations of Neolithic peoples. This was before much reliable ancient DNA data was available and it's been remarkable how strongly the ancient DNA has supported this theory. Of course it's still a theory, new finds could change or modify the theory, but we need data to test the theory, and I think many of the people active in this forum work from that perspective.

    The tragedy of losing DNAforums is that we lost the archive of posts in which Vince V and others first challenged the old consensus on the origins of R1b. That consensus was built on nothing more than naive phylogeographic analysis and ideological bias. It was fundamentally unscientific. What's different now is that we have lots of data to test theories, and people are eager for more data to continue to test and refine their theories. We've transitioned from a pre-scientific to a scientific era in the analysis of human migrations.

  6. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to GailT For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-22-2015),  ArmandoR1b (04-22-2015),  David Mc (04-22-2015),  Gray Fox (04-23-2015),  jdean (04-22-2015),  Kopfjäger (04-22-2015),  Michał (04-29-2015),  Muircheartaigh (04-22-2015),  parasar (04-22-2015),  rms2 (04-22-2015)

  7. #114
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,465
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    This thread was started by me to inject a little humility into the debates.
    Yet you haven't been humble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    Let's face it: logic is pretty strong to the contrary.
    Your statement implies your deduction of the data is the right one. That isn't being humble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    Yes, logic. It has merit. My simple point is that in the absence of perfect data (and we do not have perfect data by any stretch), it is logic that fills the gaps. One can solve complex problems that way.
    Yet again, you assert that your deduction is the right one. Yet again a lack of humility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    And my frontal lobe tells me that too much is being read into this Haak paper.
    You are asserting that your frontal lobe is more capable of logic than a team of scientists with different disciplines and of everyone else that disagrees with your viewpoint.

    That same Post #45 uses bold font which is making an assertion that your viewpoint is more important than everyone else's.

    You might want to use a little introspection if you are going to make a statement that you are trying to inject humility.

  8. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to ArmandoR1b For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-23-2015),  David Mc (04-22-2015),  Gray Fox (04-23-2015),  Michał (04-29-2015),  rms2 (04-22-2015)

  9. #115
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,988
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    I agree with most of what you say here. Especially the last sentence. But astoundingly, such statements are extremely common. On one of the other board that shall remain nameless, there are scores of posters, in 2015, discussing how cool it is that their ancestors were Caucasian Steppe Warriors. I kid you not.
    Nobody here cares what happens on other boards. Don't accuse folks here of being sexist or arguing points aggressively because you have felt slighted elsewhere.

    This is a moderated forum, so stick to the topic and stop taking unnecessary shots at people.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  10. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-23-2015),  ArmandoR1b (04-22-2015),  Gray Fox (04-23-2015),  Kopfjäger (04-22-2015),  Michał (04-29-2015),  paulgill (04-23-2015),  rms2 (04-22-2015),  Scarlet Ibis (04-23-2015)

  11. #116
    Banned
    Posts
    123
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Berkeley, CA
    Ethnicity
    "Black" Irish
    Nationality
    Proud American
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Yea I know those type of people exist and they are deluded.They are glorifying violence and making up stories. The steppe people were hardly the type of warriors many people believe. The chariot was invented quite late at Sintashta and the only steppe warriors in history were Scythians, Turks and Mongols. And these Indo-Iranian steppe warriors couldn't really expand behind their settlements in the Kazakh steppe until they absorbed more civilized populations. Same applies to R1a and R1b in Europe. The idea of some sort of pure steppe population without any other influence is long gone. However, the existence of these people doesn't justify you accusing people of racism and trying to start a gender war when most people on here are not interested in such things and this forum has no history of anything of that sort.

    Also I can see why someone might not like the sheer and utter dominance of one lineage in a population (implications of violence etc) but that doesn't mean the population is local. But this is mostly limited to R1b-P312 in portions of Western Europe. R1b-U106, R1b-Z2103, R1b-M73 and the major subclades of R1a don't have that type of dominance. So I doubt the LP theory. Otherwise we would see similarly high frequencies of U106 and Z2103 if R1b related LP is the reason for R1b's dominance in Western Europe.
    Thank you for returning us to the topic, and for being civil about it. Much appreciated. (Being serious here).

  12. #117
    Banned
    Posts
    123
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Berkeley, CA
    Ethnicity
    "Black" Irish
    Nationality
    Proud American
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Do you really think people from the British Isles are responsible for spreading anything to the continent and beyong? Britain is the ultimate genetic sink even more than the Indus Valley, Greece, Arabia etc
    Fair question. I do think it's possible, if only for the existence of Doggerland. For a long time, it wasn't so much a sink as a two-way valve.

    For those who are unfamiliar with Doggerland, it was a land bridge between England and the continent that existed until about 6200 BC. I realize that is not the time frame we are discussing, but it was a slow progression, and it has been shown that the cultures closest to one another kept in contact frequently until the lands were completely submerged.

    I don't have a citation at the tip of my fingers, but there are papers that posit that LP arose in Britain.

  13. #118
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I cannot claim to have read every paper ever produced on the subject of lactase persistence, but I have read some of them, and I have never seen or even heard of a claim that LP first arose in Britain. It seems to me such a claim, if made, would be front page news. The only paper I recall reading that had to do with LP in Britain said that its percentage increases as one moves north and west across the Isles. I have that paper on my computer at home, if anyone cares. I don't have access to it at the moment.

    As long as I have known about it I have always thought the importance of Doggerland was exaggerated, especially when it comes to R1b, since it isn't likely there was any R1b anywhere near Doggerland when it was still above water. I don't mean offense to anyone, but when I hear or see the word Doggerland, it makes me think of things like Atlantis, Area 51, El Dorado, and - what was the name of that book by Erich von Daniken? - Submarines of the Gods?

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-23-2015),  Gray Fox (04-23-2015),  Michał (04-29-2015)

Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2101112

Similar Threads

  1. 23andMe Class Action Settlement
    By GTC in forum 23andMe
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 10-16-2017, 06:40 PM
  2. Amazing find in Ireland rewrites human history
    By alan in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-25-2017, 11:01 PM
  3. Stunning Videos of Evolution in Action
    By rock hunter in forum Medical Genetics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-12-2016, 02:13 AM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-06-2016, 10:19 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •