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Thread: Human Action Could Affect Which aDNA We Find

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    Exclamation Human Action Could Affect Which aDNA We Find

    I have been conceiving this idea for a while, and I wonder if some of the more logical, open-minded people here would help all of us walk through the concept.

    We often hear the hypothesis that "there was no R1b in pre-Neolithic Europe." I wonder if perhaps the following may be a key to this theory.

    I was reading a book on prehistoric Italy, and it talked about the convergence of three cultures in the epoch immediately before the Roman Republic. Those three cultures were Etruscan, Latin, and Oscan. Bear with me as a I go through this little diversion, as it's a parable to aDNA...

    Of the three cultures, I believe two originally practiced exclusively cremation for human corpses, and one practiced inhumation (burial). This cultural trait was so pronounced and so consistent, that there is a dearth of ethnic Roman (or Latin) bodies in our records, because they cremated their dead, right into historical times.

    My point is: we are lucky to have historical records from that period, so we know the three cultures existed. But someone looking for skeletal remains of the cultures that cremated their dead might conclude, with no historical records to guide them, that the culture cremating its dead didn't exist!

    I wonder if this could explain why there has been no discovered R1b in pre-Neolithic western Europe (yet). If most of these initial R1b high-majority tribes were culturally of the X culture (whether that was Indo-European, doesn't matter), and people of the X culture always cremated their dead, might this explain the absence of samples? It would certainly reduce the odds.

    Remember, we have less than 100 ancient pre-Neolithic western European Y-Chromosome a-DNA samples. If one culture cremated their dead and the other buried it, it would be as if the cremated never existed.

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    Do we know of such a Neolithic or pre-Neolithic culture in Europe, one that so thoroughly and consistently cremated its dead that no traces of their skeletons remain?

    Such consistent and thorough cremation might explain the dearth of Neolithic and pre-Neolithic R1b results in Europe, but I don't think we have any real reason to suspect that it does. It seems to me far more likely that R1b just wasn't there to be found.

    Aside from R1b's origin, which I think the evidence indicates took place in far eastern Europe or nearby in western Asia, one clue is the advent of Indo-European languages. Most scholars believe the Indo-European family of languages are not native to central or western Europe but arose on the Pontic-Caspian steppe sometime probably in the 5th millennium BC. Steppe pastoralists moved west in the 4th millennium BC, bringing Indo-European languages with them, which were likely spread all the way to the Atlantic by successor cultures and peoples, like the Beaker Folk. So, you have a situation in most of Europe in which no one spoke Indo-European languages in Neolithic and pre-Neolithic times, but now almost everyone there does. Similarly, you have a situation in which there was little or no R1b in most of Europe during Neolithic and pre-Neolithic times, but now R1b is the predominant y haplogroup from Germany west. And both Indo-European and R1b seem to have come from the same general direction and even the same vicinity.

    Those two things don't strike me as a coincidence, especially given the recent seven-for-seven Yamnaya R1b results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    Remember, we have less than 100 ancient pre-Neolithic western European Y-Chromosome a-DNA samples. If one culture cremated their dead and the other buried it, it would be as if the cremated never existed.
    We have far from 100 ancient pre-Neolithic European(not just Western) Y-Chromosome a-DNA samples.

    1-La Braņa
    1-Loschbour
    5-Motala
    1-Karelia
    1-Samara
    1-KO1(Genetically he looks WHG, but he lived in Neolithic times, and likely was a HG who either took up farming, or his immediate family did so)

    Total: 10 << 100.

    Now if we concentrate on Western Europe, then we are looking at 2 remains, La Braņa and Loschbour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    I have been conceiving this idea for a while, and I wonder if some of the more logical, open-minded people here would help all of us walk through the concept.
    Please be advised that crossposting is a breach of forum rule 3.10. This is simply a reminder, and not an official warning. Thank you for cooperating.

    EDIT: I see that another member suggested you create a new thread. Please disregard the above. Thank you.

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    Admittedly we do not have many European pre-Neolithic y-dna results, but one would think that if R1b had been present in Europe before the Neolithic, it would show up during the Neolithic, especially given that it is now the most frequent y haplogroup from Germany west, and not altogether rare elsewhere in Europe, as well. But that is not what we see.

    My bean counting could be off, but I counted 66 Neolithic y-dna results at Jean M's Ancestral Journeys web site's DNA from the European Neolithic table. France had 24 Neolithic y-dna results, Germany had 12, and Spain had 9. Out of those 66 total results, only one was R1b, and that was the Els Trocs R1b1-M415xM269,M73 from Spain. And that one, one will notice, was M269-, so not on the same line as the vast majority of today's R1b, which is R1b-L11 (M207>M173>M343>P25>P297>M269>L23>L51>L11).

    It seems likely Els Trocs was V88+, but Haak et al did not get a read on him for V88. I have already beat that horse to death elsewhere, so I won't bother doing it yet again.

    Anyway, it could be that R1b hasn't turned up yet in peninsular European pre-Neolithic results because we just haven't tested enough pre-Neolithic remains, but does that seem a likely explanation given its scarcity in Neolithic y-dna test results? It doesn't to me, but time and more ancient y-dna will tell, I guess.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-29-2015 at 08:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Admittedly we do not have many European pre-Neolithic y-dna results, but one would think that if R1b had been present in Europe before the Neolithic, it would show up during the Neolithic, especially given that it is now the most frequent y haplogroup from Germany west, and not altogether rare elsewhere in Europe, as well. But that is not what we see.

    My bean counting could be off, but I counted 66 Neolithic y-dna results at Jean M's Ancestral Journeys web site's DNA from the European Neolithic table. France had 24 Neolithic y-dna results, Germany had 12, and Spain had 9. Out of those 66 total results, only one was R1b, and that was the Els Trocs R1b1-M415xM269,M73 from Spain. And that one, one will notice, was M269-, so not on the same line as the vast majority of today's R1b, which is R1b-L11 (M207>M173>M343>P25>P297>M269>L23>L51>L11).

    It seems likely Els Trocs was V88+, but Haak et al did not get a read on him for V88. I have already beat that horse to death elsewhere, so I won't bother doing it yet again.

    Anyway, it could be that R1b hasn't turned up yet in peninsular European pre-Neolithic results because we just haven't tested enough pre-Neolithic remains, but does that seem a likely explanation given its scarcity in Neolithic y-dna test results? It doesn't to me, but time and more ancient y-dna will tell, I guess.
    If R1b was present in Europe , as you state, before the neolithic, then every other marker apart form M and S must have been in Europe before R, as they are older and more westenly.

    Your link , clearly shows that G2a was the most present ( found so far )......clearly this marker has more say in claiming the title of "it is the original european marker"


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    My bean counting could be off, but I counted 66 Neolithic y-dna results at Jean M's Ancestral Journeys web site's DNA from the European Neolithic table. France had 24 Neolithic y-dna results, Germany had 12, and Spain had 9.
    It would be interesting to know the autosomal relationship between the Treilles remains, because a lot of their Y-DNA STRs are identical, so if this was a family burial then they wouldn't really count as 24 randomly selected samples.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Out of those 66 total results, only one was R1b, and that was the Els Trocs R1b1-M415xM269,M73 from Spain. And that one, one will notice, was M269-, so not on the same line as the vast majority of today's R1b, which is R1b-L11 (M207>M173>M343>P25>P297>M269>L23>L51>L11).
    But the Samara HG was also R1b1-L278xM269,M73; whereas the El Trocs R1b1 was R1b1-M415xM73,PF6399,L265,L150.1,M269,V69,V35. Thus technically(Per that logic) neither one of them was on the same line as the vast majority of today's R1b by virtue of both being ancestral to R1b-M269.

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    No, neither Els Trocs nor the Samara HG was M269, but the Samara HG was recovered from the same area as the Yamnaya Seven, six of whom were M269+ and one of whom was P297+. In fact, the Samara HG was buried just 2 km from one of the Yamnaya Seven and at a site that has yielded artifacts from cultures that preceded and contributed to Yamnaya. He could have been an ancestor or at least in the same line as an ancestor of those seven.

    Els Trocs, on the other hand, was buried in a place that thus far has not yielded any ancient R1b of any kind, let alone M269, and he was likely V88+ and so not even P297+.

    M73 and M269 are the two known branches of P297, M73 has its greatest frequency in western Asia and far eastern Europe, and M269 has an east-to-west phylogeography.

    So, do you expect there to be pre-Neolithic R1b in peninsular Europe? Where do you think the y-dna ancestors of most European R1b's came from and when? Where do you think the y-dna ancestors of most European R1b's spent the Younger Dryas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    If R1b was present in Europe , as you state, before the neolithic, then every other marker apart form M and S must have been in Europe before R, as they are older and more westenly.

    Your link , clearly shows that G2a was the most present ( found so far )......clearly this marker has more say in claiming the title of "it is the original european marker"
    Er . . . I never said I think R1b was in peninsular Europe before the Neolithic or even during the Neolithic. I don't, except perhaps at very very low frequencies here and there.

    I think the R1b-L51 line that most of us modern European and European-descended R1b's are on came from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, probably with Yamnaya or perhaps one of the earlier waves of steppe pastoralists, beginning in the 4th millennium BC.

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    My original post was simple.

    The hypothesis: Population size in Europe right after the Ice Age was tiny.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/03...xtinction.html

    Among the few bands of humans then (or even much later), there could have been a small tribelet or two that practice exclusively cremation. We wouldn't know much about them because they cremated their dead. (Hard to prove this negative). Their toolkit could resemble the rest of Europe.

    It's possible that one such band that was culturally different would also skew the hard science, i.e., there would be no Ancient DNA results from this band that cremated their dead.

    They could have been R1b or anything else.

    And JeanL was right: truly ancient samples from Western Europe we have very few. Stay tuned.

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