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Thread: Human Action Could Affect Which aDNA We Find

  1. #21
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    "Let's let the Ancient DNA speak for itself."

    Indeed. Check out the maps here, especially the second one.

    http://snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/04...cient-dna.html

    By 7000 years ago, R1b was already at the eastermost and westernmost points of Europe.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    We have very compelling evidence from modern and ancient DNA that from the late Neolithic onwards there was a massive expansion of R1 derived lineages acros Europe and indeed much of Eurasia, which was accompanied by an eastern shift in the genome-wide genetic structue of Europeans, and probably most West Eurasians. The groups that caused this shift were closely related to three ancient samples from eastern Europe and Siberia, belonging to R, R1a and R1b. So the two events were obviously closely linked.

    Aleady at this point I don't expect we'll find any evidence in the future to counter this picture, no matter how many ancient western European samples are sequenced.
    Hmm funny. I could've sworn you said R1a was the only involved in this a while ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    Remember, we have less than 100 ancient pre-Neolithic western European Y-Chromosome a-DNA samples. If one culture cremated their dead and the other buried it, it would be as if the cremated never existed.
    You're beating a dead horse. Most people here don't care the slightest about anthropology in general, and are here just to make themselves feel better about their own lineages by sticking to whatever story glorifies them.
    Last edited by Augustus; 04-19-2015 at 10:21 PM.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    Somehow you managed to take a dry scientific discussion and turn it into yet another example of trolling.

    The Era of the Horse started with domestication in c. 3500 BC and went at least through 1500 A.D., to pick an even date that a lot of historians place as the last major encounter between populations that had the horse and those who didn't.

    At any rate, I've given you a rough period of 5000 years. In those 5000 years, there was writing (i.e., history) for about 4/5ths of it. So 4000 years.

    You want to disprove what you call "my logic?" In those 4000 years, give me one example of a culture/tribe/nation/people conquering territory as fast as you fantasize the R1b conquered a region stretching from Russia to Portugal.

    Napoleon? Nope.

    The Conquistadores? Nope. Heck, there are parts of the Amazon much closer to the European beachhead that STILL are not populated by the newcomers (Europeans).

    And what was the population dynamic that made them cover those miles? There were vast tracts of open space, enough to support large populations. And yet populations were still very small. I suppose you think they just wanted to see the Atlantic Ocean?

    Heck, in the automobile era, there is not one example of anyone conquering and ruling and displacing such a vast region.

    In fact, even considering the world's empires, Greek, Roman, etc. - there is not one solitary example of such mass territorial conquering and displacement.

    Yet according to you, 1000 or so R1b people mysteriously swept from the Urals to Ireland, despite small numbers, despite not needing the room, despite progressing mostly on horseback, and yes, foot.

    That's "my" logic.
    Are you saying that Europeans didn't almost entirely displace Native American Indians within several hundred years in what is now the USA and Canada? The turnover from the Steppe to Ireland would have taken place over a period of 400-500 years! So yes, I think your logic is very flawed and your examples are vast generalizations of things people are posting here. Nobody said these events took five minutes.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 04-20-2015 at 12:19 AM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustus View Post
    You're beating a dead horse. Most people here don't care the slightest about anthropology in general, and are here just to make themselves feel better about their own lineages by sticking to whatever story glorifies them.
    Once again, a classic troll post from you to derail a civil conversation. Way to go.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    We know the Yamnaya cultural horizon was a big part of that, and all seven ancient Yamnaya samples from the Volga-Ural steppe were R1b. A 7,600 year old hunter-gatherer buried in the same area was also R1b, the oldest R1b yet found anywhere. Another hunter-gatherer of about the same age was recovered from Karelia, and he was R1a, the oldest R1a yet found.
    The seven yanmaya are not ascendants of R1b-L51 (West-European), since they are apparently Z2103 (HT35) whose distribution now remained around the Black Sea, especially in Turkey.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...reco-Anatolian

    For now, we can not really know where are native R1b-L51.
    Perhaps Yamnaya or maybe not!
    Y haplogroup: R1b: L21 --> DF13 --> BY145002
    The oldest L21 known are I2457 et I2565 from Stonehenge (Beaker Culture, 2400-1900 BC)

    MTDNA: U4c1
    The oldest U4c1 known are "poz224", Yamnaya culture (2882-2698 BC), and 2 Bell-Beaker in Germany (Karsdorf, 2314-2042 BC)

    Paternal MTDNA: K1b2b
    The oldest K1b2 are Eastern European Mesolithic: Kunda Donkalnis5 (Lithuania), 6000 BC and Meso-Ene Lepenski Vir Lepe28 in Serbia, 5900 BC.
    The oldest K1b2b is Alt-3, Corded-Ware Germany (2500 BC)

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolan View Post
    The seven yanmaya are not ascendants of R1b-L51 (West-European), since they are apparently Z2103 (HT35) whose distribution now remained around the Black Sea, especially in Turkey.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...reco-Anatolian

    For now, we can not really know where are native R1b-L51.
    Perhaps Yamnaya or maybe not!
    That is incorrect. Five were Z2103/Z2105+, one was of low quality and could only be classified as P297+ and one was a true L23+Z2103-L51- sample. The fact that there is a L23+Z2103-L51- sample is pretty relevant, as L51's ancestor could possibly be found in Yamnaya. Now can't say that specific skeleton was, especially given his eastern location, but we also can't say he wasn't.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    There are far too many posts suggesting "unrelatedness" of L51+ to Z2103+. What is the TMRCA of these two nodes? 1000 years? 1500?
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    "Let's let the Ancient DNA speak for itself."

    Indeed. Check out the maps here, especially the second one.

    http://snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/04...cient-dna.html

    By 7000 years ago, R1b was already at the eastermost and westernmost points of Europe.
    The very clear distinction, the Iberian man being R1b (xM269). Almost no European men descend from a similar man. It's about as informative as saying the sky is blue.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Are you saying that Europeans didn't almost entirely displace Native American Indians within several hundred years in what is now the USA and Canada? The turnover from the Steppe to Ireland would have taken place over a period of 400-500 years! So yes, I think your logic is very flawed and your examples are vast generalizations of things people are posting here. Nobody said these events took five minutes.
    I agree with Richard. I would never say it was glorious, but it is clear that European settlers overtook much of North America in little time, essentially swamping the prior folks.

    My own speculations are that many modern Americans have a drop or two of Native American blood. I look at my grandmother's grandmother and I can see the facial features, even though her maiden name was Shulz. However, this only equates to a very small percentage.

    It is quite is easy to conceive that some various R1b and R1a lineages over-ran much of Europe over a millenium. It's definitely not a proof point to argue counter to this.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-20-2015 at 03:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    There are far too many posts suggesting "unrelatedness" of L51+ to Z2103+. What is the TMRCA of these two nodes? 1000 years? 1500?
    Both L51 and Z2103 are L23+. I would guess this puts their TMRCA at anywhere from 4000 to 7000 years ago. 1000-1500 years ago is way, way too young for this MRCA.

    If you are asking for the time span between the first L51+ man and the L23 MRCA as well as the span between the first Z2103+ man and the L23 MRCA, that might not have been that long. For that time span, we should probably ask our SNP counting folks to give us some ideas.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-20-2015 at 03:44 AM.

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