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Thread: U152 > L2 > Z49 > Z142 > Z150/Z12222 > FGC12378 et al.

  1. #1
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    U152 > L2 > Z49 > Z142 > Z150/Z12222 > FGC12378 et al.

    Just wanted to share some of my thoughts on this branch based on Yfull's SNP dating and release of combBED area data for individuals
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...6588#post76588

    Yfull currently dates Z150/Z12222 as
    formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybp
    This would be during the Bell Beaker period
    BellBeaker.gif.
    Which is compatible with the current distribution in Britain, Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Italy, and Spain.
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...6212,43.286133

    FGC12378/79/80/81/82 (aka Y3140/42/43 and Y10987 on the Ytree) is on the Ytree as
    formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybp
    For comparison, using my specific 167.77 years per SNP mutation and starting with Z150/Z1222 date of 4530 ybp, I get 3523 ybp for this block of SNPs...so slightly younger than what is shown on the Ytree.

    FGC12383/Y3140 currently has members from Valencia, Spain, Netherlands, and England. Ytree doesn't currently recognize this branch, but Richard Rocca's U152 tree does.
    http://www.r1b.org/docs/Full_Y-Chrom...2_Samples.xlsx

    Using my 167.77 years per SNP gives a date of 3356 ybp or ~1400 BC. I'm wondering if this branch might be associated with the Urnfield Culture (1300 BC – 750 BC), which shows coverage in these same areas.
    240px-UrnfieldCulture.jpg

    Continuing with this line of thought; my terminal branch is FGC12401/02/03/04/05 (aka Y9080/Y10984/Y10985/Y10986/Y4272/FGC12403 on Ytree); which I currently share with another individual with British ancestry. Again using the 167.77 years per SNP method gives a date of 2517 ybp or 567BC.
    As the Urnfield culture was followed by the Hallstaat, I wonder if this branch might be representative of the iron age Hallstatt D culture in Britain.

    Hallstatt Culture Roots

    At the end of the Urnfield stage of the Late Bronze Age, ca. 800 BC, the central Europeans were mostly farmers (herding and growing crops). The Hallstatt culture included an area between central France to western Hungary and from the Alps to central Poland. The term includes many different unrelated regional groups, who used the same set of material culture because of a strong network of trade and exchange. By 600 BC, iron tools spread into northern Britain and Scandinavia; elites concentrated in western and central Europe. The Hallstatt elites became concentrated within a zone between what is now the Burgundy region of eastern France and southern Germany. These elites were powerful and located in at least 16 hillforts called "seats of power" or fürstensitz.
    http://archaeology.about.com/od/iron...tt-Culture.htm

    Just thinking out loud here; and recognizing my desire to get to a Britain specific sub-branch may have biased my thinking.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-29-2015 at 06:44 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Just wanted to share some of my thoughts on this branch based on Yfull's SNP dating and release of combBED area data for individuals
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...6588#post76588

    Yfull currently dates Z150/Z12222 as
    This would be during the Bell Beaker period
    BellBeaker.gif.
    Which is compatible with the current distribution in Britain, Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Italy, and Spain.
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...6212,43.286133

    FGC12378/79/80/81/82 (aka Y3140/42/43 and Y10987 on the Ytree) is on the Ytree as
    For comparison, using my specific 167.77 years per SNP mutation and starting with Z150/Z1222 date of 4530 ybp, I get 3523 ybp for this block of SNPs...so slightly younger than what is shown on the Ytree.

    FGC12383/Y3140 currently has members from Valencia, Spain, Netherlands, and England. Ytree doesn't currently recognize this branch, but Richard Rocca's U152 tree does.
    http://www.r1b.org/docs/Full_Y-Chrom...2_Samples.xlsx

    Using my 167.77 years per SNP gives a date of 3356 ybp or ~1400 BC. I'm wondering if this branch might be associated with the Urnfield Culture (1300 BC – 750 BC), which shows coverage in these same areas.
    240px-UrnfieldCulture.jpg

    Continuing with this line of thought; my terminal branch is FGC12401/02/03/04/05 (aka Y9080/Y10984/Y10985/Y10986/Y4272/FGC12403 on Ytree); which I currently share with another individual with British ancestry. Again using the 167.77 years per SNP method gives a date of 2517 ybp or 567BC.
    As the Urnfield culture was followed by the Hallstaat, I wonder if this branch might be representative of the iron age Hallstatt D culture in Britain.


    http://archaeology.about.com/od/iron...tt-Culture.htm

    Just thinking out loud here; and recognizing my desire to get to a Britain specific sub-branch may have biased my thinking.
    Your 167.77 was based on Big-Y coverage, correct? I think the Full Genomes estimate averaged 122? The link to the spreadsheet is broken.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Your 167.77 was based on Big-Y coverage, correct? I think the Full Genomes estimate averaged 122? The link to the spreadsheet is broken.
    Fixed the link above but is here the hyperlink to the post containing the spreadsheet (I guess it changed after I posted it above). See the link to the excel sheet in post #5 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post76468

    Yes my 167.77 is based on my specific BigY test. However, the average for all BigY tests is 160.46 years. I went to my Yfull statistics page and got my
    Length coverage for age: 7269144 bp
    This statistic was just added a couple of days ago.
    yfull-screenshot.jpg

    I then used the spreadsheet and changed the default value of 7600000 for all BigY tests to my test's 7269144, and entered my novel SNPs along with my public SNPs below Z142, starting with Z12222.

    Here is a screen shot of the spreadsheet with some columns I added for SNP names and dates, and borders to better identify my branches. My Novel SNPs begin with FGC12384
    CombBED-spreadsheet.png
    The spreadsheet automatically determines the adjustment for my particular test and adjusts the SNP count to only include those located in the combBED area. The ones with the yellow 0 cell in column D are outside of the comBed area and not counted.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-30-2015 at 02:14 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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    For those of you who are currently confused or saying what the hell is a "combBED area"; go to this link and start reading posts 865, 869, and 870. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post75225

    The addition of the new "Length coverage for age" statistic on the Yfull analysis members's page allows one to determine average years between SNPs for your particular test.

    Also Dave_V the author of the spreadsheet discusses it here http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post76572

    The above discussion is related to the paper Yfull released explaining the SNP dating methodogy. Link to the Yfull paper is here http://rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJG...e/view/151/175
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-30-2015 at 12:39 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  6. #5
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    Tonight I placed the STR results for the 28 U152 project members of the various Z150 branches into a spreadsheet, in an attempt to find a combination of off modal STR values unique to my branch, U152 > L2 > Z49 > Z142 > Z150/Z12222 > FGC12378/79/80/81/82 > FGC12383/Y3141.

    I found DYS446=14 and DYS549=13 only occurs in the two current members of my terminal branch. They are both 111 marker STRs

    Using this:
    1. I looked for this pattern in the other main branch of Z142, R-Z51; and no kits did. That's a good sign that I might be on to something.

    2. So I looked at all the Z142 folks that haven't tested below Z142 and one matched: 102977 William Hill (bef 1742 – bef 1785).

    3. I then looked at all the Z49 folks that tested negative for Z142 and 2 had this combination; so that is a problem. If you add the requirement that DYS390=24 then it weeds out these two false matches

    4. I then looked at the Z49 folks that haven't tested below for Z142 and one kit had DYS390=24, DYS446=14 and DYS549=13: 223609 Thomas Augustus Swaysland, b. 1797 and d. 1841.

    5. I then looked at all the L2 folks that haven't tested below L2 and one kit had DYS390=24, DYS446=14 and DYS549=13: 8185 Daniel Grass b 1774 Pa d 1836 IN.

    6. There was one L2+, Z49- person that was DYS390=24, DYS446=14 and DYS549=13, but he had 10 markers that didn't match my terminal branch modal values.

    Based on this experiment Z142+ Hill (10297), Z49+ Swaysland (22360), and L2+ Grass (8185), have the right STR combination to potentially be on my terminal branch.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-10-2015 at 04:12 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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    Swayzland (22360) is very likely DYS385a/b = 11/13.2, though he didn't respond when I suggested he contact FTDNA to confirm. Langley (31971) and Mason (136311), who are confirmed 11/13.2, have DYS446=14 AND DYS549=13 according to FTDNA, while I, also confirmed, have results from FGC of DYS446=14 and DYS549=12. At the same time, unlike our distant Z150 relatives we all have DYS481=24 instead of DYS481=22.

    Still trying to recruit at least one other 11/13.2 for FGC Prime or Big Y. Which reminds me, how does someone qualify for a Big Y coupon?

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    If Swaysland (22360) is DYS385a/b = 11/13.2 then that potentially shoots a hole into my experiment...oh well...back to the drawing board.

    FTDNA coupons are typically offered twice per year and you get a notification. Next one should be near father's day. Even if you don't get one, someone else can donate one. I tried to give one away last Christmas but no one contacted me wanting it before it expired.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-10-2015 at 11:38 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  12. #8
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    I just added a SNP from my current terminal branch Y9080 on Ytree and FGC12401 on Rocca's tree to the YSEQ.net wish list. One day later it's available http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=12199
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 07-13-2015 at 11:51 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  13. #9
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    It's been out for a month but I just noticed this new feature at Yfull, the "age estimation" feature.

    If I understand it correctly the unrounded and rounded ages are based on my specific data. The "age by all samples" is literally that. The Y9080 age is based my and another individual.

    The dates based only on my data and the "age by all samples" dates are pretty consistent until you get the top two most recent dates.

    So maybe my terminal is younger than originally listed...SNP 2400 ybp (450 BC) instead of 3000 (1050 BC).

    Y9080-age-estimate.jpg
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 09-15-2015 at 04:15 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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  15. #10
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    On Richard's latest tree

    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12378/79/80/81/82/83 now has at least 3 branches and probably more

    The Vidaillet/Lincoln Branch (17909529(G/T), 22440780(A/T) )
    The Mitchell/de Riccio/Roberts Branch (FGC12401/2/3/4/5)
    The Brace branch (no matches yet)

    Plus A Spanish individual (Hg17777) and 2 Dutch individuals (GoNLx2) may each have their own branches too.

    Also de Riccio and Roberts now have their own sub branch of FGC12401/2/3/4/5, while I'm on another (no matches yet)
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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