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Thread: Group Rib-U152 > L2 > FGC22501

  1. #1
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    Group Rib-U152 > L2 > FGC22501

    Dear friends of the group R1b-U152,
    as I had said some time ago, lately I'm trying to create some subgroups of R1b-U152 using the STR guide.
    The latest results and the excellent work of our friend Richard Rocca has made my job easier.
    Lately I seem to have identified several subgroups, predominantly R1b-L2 (I'm trying to find my own,
    but I fear the worst) Among these subgroups there is one that concerns a person who attended this forum.
    I refer to Wheaton and the subgroup FGC22501.
    This subgroup is distinguishing trait from these 2 STR:
    DYS385a = 12;
    DYS438 = 13;
    and it is divided into three families:
    A. family Wheaton;
    B. family Kidd;
    C. family Dootz;

    The family Kidd and Wheaton could be joined by these 2 STR (hypotheses):
    DYS607=14 (not stable);
    DYS557=17;

    In this subgroup could belong the following samples (possibility estimated average 50%):
    - Isaac Baron (157888);
    - Meshack Green (143965);
    - Louis Mabillard (B1553);
    - Charles Tripp (45421);
    - Issac Fletcher (31326);
    - Jean Gaydou (N71913);
    - Conrad Litzinger (210827);
    - Thomas Tugwell (173863);
    - Walraven van Benthem (97367);
    - Gilles Moh (226657);


    However, among these, there are some for which the likelihood is much higher. I refer to the following
    that should belong to the family Kidd:
    - Thomas Tugwell (173863);
    - Walraven Van Benthem (97367);

    With these STR guide:
    DYS385b = 15;
    DYS454 = 12 (only Kidd e Tugwell);
    DYS464b = 16;
    DYS464c = 16;
    DYS464b = 16 (only Kidd e Tugwell);
    DYS534 = 16;
    DYS446 = 14;

    and those that should belong to the family Wheaton:
    - Conrad Litzinger (210827);

    With these STR guide:
    DYS458 = 16;
    DYS447 = 16;
    DYS4565 = 11;


    I have not yet identified any sample that may belong to the family Dootz (I refer to recent samples).

    It would be interesting if Tugwell, Van Benthem and Litzinger did the test FGC22501

    I hope I have not bored you.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 04-07-2015 at 11:50 AM.

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     Agamemnon (04-07-2015),  Kwheaton (04-07-2015),  R.Rocca (04-07-2015)

  3. #2
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    WOW!
    You haven't bored me, but I am the manager of the WHEATON group! FGC22501 was requested from YSEQ but was not among the SNPS able to be Sanger Sequenced. It does not appear in either DOOTZ or KIDD's BigY so I suspect it is not covered. They both however are positive for FGC22538. As well as a number of anonymous others. All of the 22 other SNPS found in the WHEATON FGC Prime that are easily Sanger sequenced appear in a new panel available at YSEQ. I believe that one Other WHEATON and a KIDD are being tested now for that panel. I have tentaive committments from two others kater this year. One a MALLENBY and one a WHEATON. The panel is called FGC22503 and is $231 at YSEQ and contains 21 SNPS and 1 INDEL. There are another half dozen SNPS that Astrid said Primers might be developed with a committment of 3 testers. The KIDD test will be key to see if there is anything below FGC22538 that they might share.

    Rich Any ideas on whether these other members might be interested in testing further?

    I will have a closer look at the possible origins of each of the propose surnames above. I recognize TUGWELL off the top as common in Wiltshire, Devon and Somerset. My target zone has been North Devon and Somerset and across the Bristol channel in Wales. And would include Gloucester.

    I so thank you for your work and suggestions
    Last edited by Kwheaton; 04-07-2015 at 08:41 PM.

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  5. #3
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    I wonder if anyone has given any thought to a downstream panel of L2 to capture all the different branches. If it could be developed for a reasonabake price it might be something that L2's woukd consider????

  6. #4
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    Surprise result today. In our WHEATON panel FC22503 available at YSEQ we are testing 22 SNPS for our second WHEATON. These men are separated by a minimum of 305 years (MRCA bc 1606) Of the 16 reported so far the second WHEATON is positive for ALL of them. (The first number is the YSEQ Kit Number) I expected at least a couple of differences. None so far. It will be interesting to see if KIDD comes up positive for any of them.
    2070 FGC22512 ChrY 6650692 6650692 A+
    2070 FGC22514 ChrY 8191129 8191129 G+
    2070 FGC22522 ChrY 14018390 14018390 T+
    2070 FGC22523 ChrY 14669468 14669468 G+
    2070 FGC22524 ChrY 15018061 15018061 C+
    2070 FGC22525 ChrY 15079349 15079349 C+
    2070 FGC22528 ChrY 15661096 15661096 A+
    2070 FGC22534 ChrY 16343883 16343883 G+
    2070 FGC22535 ChrY 16552415 16552415 T+
    2070 FGC22536 ChrY 17651418 17651418 G+
    2070 FGC22539 ChrY 19160312 19160312 A+
    2070 FGC22546 ChrY 23113792 23113792 G+
    2070 FGC22547 ChrY 23197247 23197247 A+
    2070 FGC22549 ChrY 15024253 15024254 del+

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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwheaton View Post
    I wonder if anyone has given any thought to a downstream panel of L2 to capture all the different branches. If it could be developed for a reasonabake price it might be something that L2's woukd consider????
    Yes, but I don't think it would be economically feasible for the tester. There are so many different subclades right below L2 that the tester would not get a test of three, four or five subclades below L2.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  9. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Yes, but I don't think it would be economically feasible for the tester. There are so many different subclades right below L2 that the tester would not get a test of three, four or five subclades below L2.
    So really better to test based on STR similarities, Locales and hunches?

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  11. #7
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    Acque agitate

    I want to give you credit for your predictions. You wrote
    I refer to Wheaton and the subgroup FGC22501.
    This subgroup is distinguishing trait from these 2 STR:
    DYS385a = 12;
    DYS438 = 13;
    and it is divided into three families:
    A. family Wheaton;
    B. family Kidd;
    C. family Dootz;

    The family Kidd and Wheaton could be joined by these 2 STR (hypotheses):
    DYS607=14 (not stable);
    DYS557=17;

    In this subgroup could belong the following samples (possibility estimated average 50%):
    - Isaac Baron (157888);
    - Meshack Green (143965);
    - Louis Mabillard (B1553);
    - Charles Tripp (45421);
    - Issac Fletcher (31326);
    - Jean Gaydou (N71913);
    - Conrad Litzinger (210827);
    - Thomas Tugwell (173863);
    - Walraven van Benthem (97367);
    - Gilles Moh (226657);

    Charles Tripp (45421) Does indeed share downstream SNPS with our WHEATON group including:
    FGC22500 15719124 C T (Low Quality?)
    FGC22501 3390633 G A
    FGC22516 9843635 C T
    FGC22528 15661096 G A This has been Sanger sequenced
    FGC22533 1629214 C A
    FGC22538 18099238 A G
    FGC22547 23197247 G A This has been Sanger sequenced

    For anyone interested we do have a segregation panel including many of these at YSEQ http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=10796
    This panel found two differences between two WHEATON whose MRCA was born in 1606
    Making progress. And thank you Rich for the heads up!
    Last edited by Kwheaton; 07-25-2015 at 06:21 PM.

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  13. #8
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    Just thought I would post this very rough draft here of the possible migration route of FGC22501 and downstream SNPS

    Draft Map of FGC22501.jpg

  14. #9
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    Just thought I would post this very rough draft here of the possible migration route of FGC22501 and downstream SNPS. Easier to visualize this way.
    Kelly

    Draft Map of FGC22501.jpg

    Sorry about the double post...if someone can remove one that would be great.
    Last edited by Kwheaton; 09-13-2015 at 12:15 AM.

  15. #10
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    Looks like FGC22501 had a positive call in the R1b SNP Pack and is now on the FTDNA Tree. Congratulations!

    [Edit - what is also odd is that they want me to special order FGC22501 as an individual SNP, though it is not listed under advanced SNP orders.]
    Last edited by haleaton; 09-17-2015 at 01:16 PM.

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