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Thread: G1

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  3. #2
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    I think the map they have (from Oransky) with Media shown is absurd. The early Medes, IMO, are to be identified with a portion of the Umman Manda, specifically the Mitanni in the Aleppo area.

    As to the spread of G1 with from Iran to Central Asia with Persian expansion, that makes sense, but that is a secondary expansion completely unrelated to the PIE issue.


    Oransky I. Map 1. Southwest Asia, Iran and Central Asia in the VI. BC. Introduction to Iranian philology. Moscow: Publishing House of Oriental Literature; 1960. p. 62–3 (In Russian)

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  5. #3
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    The authors tried to estimate a mutation rate according to the supposed kept genealogy of the Argyns and they take the reference of 1385 AD for the birthes of the sons of Karakhoja supposed the ancestor of majority of Argyn clans and Karakhoja's brother the ancestor of the other Argyn clans. It seems strange to refer to this legendary genealogy for scientific calculations, this reminds Gengis Khan supposed ancestor of a big branch of C2 or an O'Neill king supposed ancestor of the M222 branch of R1b-L21 and other very rough approximation.

    One century before 1385AD, the Argyns were refered by Marco Polo who "says that the prevailing tribe of that country are Argon Christians (i.e. Argyns), which means Basmul." and "Mahmut Kashgari (11th century) listed Basmyls as one of ten prominent Turkic tribes, enumerating location of the Türkic polities from the borders of Greece to the borders of China in the following sequence: Bechen (Badjinak), Kyfchak (Kipchak), Oguz, Yemek (Kimek), Bashgyrt (Bashkort), Basmyl, Kai, Yabaku, Tatars, Kyrgyz. He also noted that the tribes Kai, Yabaku, Tatar, and Basmyl are bilingual, speaking in Türkic alongside their own languages".

    Bechen (Badjinag) are Pechenegs or Patzinaks.

    We can suppose Argyns/Basmyl had spoken an iranian language (surviving in 11th century AD) before Turkic

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyns
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmyl
    Last edited by palamede; 04-09-2015 at 11:40 AM. Reason: correction : 1385AD instead of 1385BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I think the map they have (from Oransky) with Media shown is absurd.
    In fact the label of this map is
    "A) Area populated by Iranic speakers in the middle of the first millennium BC. States whose languages belonged to the Iranic and Armenian linguistic groups are shown in red (modified from [39])."

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    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    The authors tried to estimate a mutation rate according to the supposed kept genealogy of the Argyns and they take the reference of 1385 AD for the birthes of the sons of Karakhoja supposed the ancestor of majority of Argyn clans and Karakhoja's brother the ancestor of the other Argyn clans. It seems strange to refer to this legendary genealogy for scientific calculations, this reminds Gengis Khan supposed ancestor of a big branch of C2 or an O'Neill king supposed ancestor of the M222 branch of R1b-L21 and other very rough approximation.
    They at least put this statement in:
    Though there is no historical evidence for the existence of Argyn
    Last edited by Tįltos; 04-08-2015 at 06:10 PM.

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    Opinion of Ray Banks (Main responsible people of the G project).
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/9995363812/

    Elliot Greenspan (Affiliation: Gene by Gene, Ltd., Houston, Texas, United States of America) is stated of one of the authors of the paper

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    Some Iranic G1 speakers could easily be Proto-Indo-European just like we have some basal types of J1 and J2 clearly associated with ancient and modern Iranic speakers. Let's remember the Proto-Turkic, the Proto-Afroasiatic and Proto-Semitic, the Proto-Uralic, they were all originally spoken in some original core areas and expanded to distant areas and new frontiers to give differentiated protolanguages. The modern frontiers incorporated and assimilated new populations and new derived haplogroups quite different from the original speakers and the basal founders. In the case of the J haplogroup and specially in the ancient Iranian J1 types we only need to investigate the basal Y full sequences of the first Northern Iranian basal J1 branches to understand the association with the same Iranian maps of the G1 frequences and concentrations.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
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    This and L1b are very common in Northeast Anatolian and Western Georgian (or Southwestern Caucasian) populations (Armenian Hemshin, Laz, Mingrelian, Pontic Greek etc. ) as mysterious. I think G1 and L1b could be related in there.

    Look at the FTDNA Hemshin project.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    Renfrew hypotesis about G1 seems more logical.
    Last edited by Caspian; 04-19-2015 at 07:16 AM.

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    This gives us a huge set of G1 SNPs. I compared them to the paltry 3 G1 samples in Hallast et al 2014 (quite a few of the "newly reported in this study" SNPs were scooped by Hallast).

    The Nepalese G1 man (nep-0191) shares 2 SNPs with the Bashkir-Armenian G1-GG313 branch and 6 with the G1-GG265 Armenian branch, which suggests a split from the Armenian clade on the order of 5000 years ago, give or take a couple of millennia.

    The other two Hallast samples, ire-0093 and bav-55, form a clade. This Irish-Bavarian branch shares 3 SNPs with the G1-L1324 Kazakh-Mongol branch of Balanovsky, but nothing downstream, so this must be quite an old divergence, maybe 7000 years ago or so.

    The position of the West Indian G1-GG362 branch identified by Balanovsky as being basal to all the rest is curious. It shares 3 SNPs with the Irish-Bavarian clade of Hallast and 2 SNPs specifically with ire-0093. I'm not sure what this means - possibly the Indian branch should actually be grouped with the Kazakh-Mongol branch.

    So maybe something like:

    G1-M285
    -----G1a-F1761
    -----------G1a1-GG133
    ------------------G1a1a-L1324
    -------------------------G1a1a1-L1323/GG118 (Kazakhs 1-9 from Balanovsky)
    --------------------------------G1a1a1a-Y12252/GG095 (Kazakhs 7 and 9, YF02842, YF02990)
    -------------------------G1a1a2-GG001 (Mongol 1)
    ------------------G1a1b-GG372
    -------------------------G1a1b1* (bav-55 from Germany)
    -------------------------G1a1b1a
    --------------------------------G1a1b1a* (ire-0093 from Ireland)
    --------------------------------G1a1b1a1-GG362 (GIH NA20858 and NA20870 from western India)
    -----------G1a2-GG313
    ------------------G1a2a-GG281
    -------------------------G1a2a* (nep-0093 from Nepal)
    -------------------------G1a2a1-GG265 (Armenians 1-6)
    ------------------G1a2b-GG162 (Bashkirs 1-3)
    -----G1b-L830 (YF02011, origin not given)
    Last edited by Megalophias; 04-22-2015 at 07:29 AM.

  13. #10
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    Anyone know of any more recent G1 studies or anything new in general?
    Matthew Langley

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