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Thread: R1b Big Picture Descendants Tree

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    Lightbulb R1b Big Picture Descendants Tree

    It's been over a year since I tried to maintain this, given all of the Next Gen Sequencing results that are discovering branching, but I've taken another cut at this.

    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Chart

    You should be able to open this with any .pdf viewer. You probably will want to use the zoom and pan features.

    This is not intended to be a full tree. that would be impossible without a wall board or mural. To give you an idea here is a draft L21 tree. There are about 500 branches on it now and this is just one small piece of R1b.
    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L21-Tree-Chart

    I expect that there will be feedback on which branches are important or large enough to be included on this kind of simplified and high level tree chart. Please post feedback or corrections here. If there aren't any errors I'd be dog goned surprised.

    The bulk of the people that are testing are downstream of P311 so that is where I'm showing a little more of the edges of the tree. In effect this "big picture" look is the early branching plus the most numbers branches.

    This is all in support of the R1b Gateway project. We have almost 7000 members now.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-10-2015 at 03:45 PM.

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    Wonderful work, Mike. Thank you very much! I am assuming your "Western Atlantic" designation refers to present locations more than assumed origins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mc View Post
    Wonderful work, Mike. Thank you very much! I am assuming your "Western Atlantic" designation refers to present locations more than assumed origins?
    Hi, David. Thanks.

    I used some legacy terminology on the chart because sometimes that comes up. In this case, we know that FTDNA uses "WAMH" or the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype. My intent was to indicate that STR set generally overlaps people downstream of P311.

    This draft tree chart is created for the R1b project. In that project I try to explain a few things like what WAMH is. See:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results

    I try to list the R1b specific scientific papers on the about-results page.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-10-2015 at 10:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    It's been over a year since I tried to maintain this, given all of the Next Gen Sequencing results that are discovering branching, but I've taken another cut at this.

    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Chart

    You should be able to open this with any .pdf viewer. You probably will want to use the zoom and pan features.

    This is not intended to be a full tree. that would be impossible without a wall board or mural. To give you an idea here is a draft L21 tree. There are about 500 branches on it now and this is just one small piece of R1b.
    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L21-Tree-Chart

    I expect that there will be feedback on which branches are important or large enough to be included on this kind of simplified and high level tree chart. Please post feedback or corrections here. If there aren't any errors I'd be dog goned surprised.

    The bulk of the people that are testing are downstream of P311 so that is where I'm showing a little more of the edges of the tree. In effect this "big picture" look is the early branching plus the most numbers branches.

    This is all in support of the R1b Gateway project. We have almost 7000 members now.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b
    @mike, as always, you can find the latest U152 tree in the project results page: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

    The surname clusters are documented all the way on the right-most colum and can be ignored.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    @mike, as always, you can find the latest U152 tree in the project results page: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

    The surname clusters are documented all the way on the right-most colum and can be ignored.
    Thanks, yes, that is what I looked at, primarily your "U152 and Subclades Phylogenetic Tree". What does "Floating SNP" mean?

    What's the status for SNP names on some of those? For instance, "6628883(T/C)" and the block associated with it? I could not find anything in YBrowse. This is a little different than what I'm use to. In the world of L21 I'm use to having FGC, YSEQ and Yfull almost simultaneously naming these things and sometimes FTDNA too. It's craziness in synonyms.

    I'm trying to show major and famous subclades even if they are downstream a couple of steps, in some cases. For instance, I've added M222 and SRY2627 and added a crooked connector line to indicate there were multiple steps. Am I missing something in U152 that everyone will ask "where is it?"

    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-M343-Tree-Chart
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-13-2015 at 02:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thanks, yes, that is what I looked at, primarily your "U152 and Subclades Phylogenetic Tree". What does "Floating SNP" mean?

    What's the status for SNP names on some of those? For instance, "6628883(T/C)" and the block associated with it? I could not find anything in YBrowse. This is a little different than what I'm use to. In the world of L21 I'm use to having FGC, YSEQ and Yfull almost simultaneously naming these things and sometimes FTDNA too. It's craziness in synonyms.

    I'm trying to show major and famous subclades even if they are downstream a couple of steps, in some cases. For instance, I've added M222 and SRY2627 and added a crooked connector line to indicate there were multiple steps. Am I missing something in U152 that everyone will ask "where is it?"

    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-M343-Tree-Chart
    As you know, 90% of novel SNPs are neither named nor available via Sanger sequencing. So, many do not yet have SNP aliases and are not on YBrowse. In the case above, this is a NGS found SNP at Y-chromosome position 6628883 that has an ancestral value of "T" and a derived state of "C".
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Since we want to emphasize the higher volume branches for U106 I would suggest
    1) remove A2150, L6, and S18632 from the top level under U106. They are very small minor stublets.
    2) Under the Z18 branch down several levels is the major L257 group. A good number of lineages fork around L257
    3) Under Z381-> Z156 the Z304 level splits into two major branches DF98 and DF96 (need to support those royal Wettin's)
    4) For Z301->S1688 lets add the important U198 region under S1688
    5) Under L48 it would be good to add L47 which splits to L44 and Z159. Then also add Z9-> Z30 which splits to Z1 and Z331->Z326 (8.5% of the U106er's are under Z331. Go nulls!)

    https://app.box.com/s/afqsrrnvv2d51msqcz2o

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    This is cool. So M335 *is* under L389?

    Not putting B1 on there yet? I'm guessing there'll end up being quite a bit in South Asia but I could be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    This is cool. So M335 *is* under L389?
    There are no proofs that M335+ is L389+ too. Based on STRs the M335+ samples are clustered with the L278* samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smal View Post
    There are no proofs that M335+ is L389+ too. Based on STRs the M335+ samples are clustered with the L278* samples.
    Are Vince Vizachero's conclusions wrong? The R-M343 (M73- M269-) project clearly diagrams M335 as parallel to P297 and downstream of L389/PF6531.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/

    The impression I had was that Vince and Thomas Krahn thought L389 was an equivalent a good replacement for P25. Do we have to go back to using P25? The branching apparently supports that M335 is parallel to P297 and they have a common ancestor after L278.

    I think we also have Peter posting here. Perhaps he knows the rationale.

    I see we've had this conversation before:
    http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/i...;topic=11603.0

    It seems crazy we are still talking about this. I see two M335+ guys in the project.
    24282 Graf
    156198 Burger

    L389 is available on the Orders/Advanced Tests/SNP menu as Sanger Sequenced.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-14-2015 at 11:59 AM.

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