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Thread: FGC3213

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    I wish I was just Scottish at this point, would have been neat and tidy. I even researched mercenaries during the 30 years war, fighting for the Protestants, unfortunately I cluster even further away from Scots than Irish and Welsh.
    Right now your position in the tree hasn't been determined so I would consider it premature to talk about who you 'cluster' with. STRs are not always a good guide to relatedness whereas SNPs prove it. You have only tested one of several possible sub-branches of FGC3213 and these are probably aeons old. Really your choice boils down to whether you splash out/save up a bit and knock it on the head with an NGS test or spread the cost and do it one SNP at a time. The latter course can take flipping ages though!
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    Ancestry GCs: Scots in central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland; English in Yorkshire & Pennines
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  3. #22
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    CTS4466>...>Z16259

    MacUalraig has said "But trees aren't or shouldn't be build from STRs". As I state clearly on the referenced tree "WHERE CONFIGURATIONS ARE NOT CONFIRMED BY SNP TESTING, DIFFERENT PERMUTATIONS ARE POSSIBLE FROM THE TIME OF FORMATION OF THE ANCESTRAL HAPLOTYPE COMMON TO ALL PARTICIPANTS ON THE Z16534 STEM. THE RELIABILITY CAN ONLY BE IMPROVED BY MORE PARTICIPANTS TESTING STRs TO 111 MARKERS AND NGS TESTING, IDENTIFYING SNPs WHICH GIVE FIRM DEFINITION TO THE BRANCHES AND TWIGS (SUBCLADES) OF THE TREE.

    So I fully agree SNP testing is required to confirm any postulated structure built on STRs. But I contest the "shouldn't be built...". This tree was constructed about four years ago when we had only SNPs P314 and L362 and very few adjustments (other than fleshing out deep subclade details) have had to be made since we have had the explosion of SNPs. Similar success was achieved with the Irish Type II tree (CTS4466) built on the same lines. Yes we have been caught out in a few areas (usually where testing stopped short of 111 markers) but SNP testing has largely confirmed the basic structure of that STR-based tree too. Such trees also very often allow for a cheaper way of determining deep clade terminal SNPs. Many participants in panel testing could have saved considerable sums by testing individual SNPs based on NGS and STR testing by others. Without the postulated tree built largely on STR data we would have had a blank piece of paper until 2014.

    The one area of the Z16534 / P314 tree always acknowledged as subject to significant change was that in which the European mainland participants sit (Reith, Conrardy and Maland). I also had 11217 Basile there but in the absence of appropraite SNP testing have removed him for the time being: his haplotype suggests any of Z16534, L513 or CTS3386 are possibilities). I fully agree (and always have done) that deep SNP testing is required to properly define their positions on this tree, and until we have Big Y or FGC Elite tests for these, their locations on the tree will be subject to change, although I do believe that either the present configuration or the alternative one suggested in Note 11 will prevail.

    Oneillabu suggests using GDs as a discussion point for determining Christian Reith's most likely origins. I respectfully suggest a carefully constructed tree is a much more valuable way of approaching this task. I see nothing in Christian's haplotype to suggest he would test positive for L362 (though nothing is certain without a test!). Oneillabu lists some "some ancient Irish surnames" which Christian "matches", but almost every name on the referenced tree is an equal contender. What about Chisholm, Eubanks (originally thought to be English, but with a clear Scottish Chisholm connection on the tree), McAllister, Martin (which could derive in many lands but seems to share Keenan ancestry here)?

    If you study the concentrations of surnames on the tree you will see that those who are L362 +ve (Group 2a) are almost entirely Munster-based. There is some evidence that some of the very few non-Munster names here derive from Irish slavery in the Caribbean, and of course NPEs are always an all-too-easy explanation for any that don't quite fit! However L362 has many equivalents at present so even this stem could have started out elsewhere. The other major branch (Group 4) includes some Munster subgroups but also a significant Scottish contingent. We cannot say, at this stage, in which direction any migration between the two occurred, or, of course, where the post-FGC3213 progenitor of both major branches lived (Munster, Scotland, elsewhere in Ireland or mainland Europe). Population movement arguments can be proffered to support any theory.

    So my recommendation has to remain: an NGS test. Let's properly define the early stages of development of this tree then we can focus on later subclades.

    Nigel McC

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     Mikewww (12-08-2015),  Reith (12-02-2015)

  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCarthygen View Post
    Mr Reith,

    I am going to include you on the P314 / McCarthy Group B Tree at http://tinyurl.com/McCarthyScrapbook. However, I would like to know if you have taken any SNP tests since FGC3213. Your 13 at DYS 388 is a conundrum, as you will see from the current (05 Oct 2015) tree that I would have expected it to be 12. In particular I would recommend an NGS tests such as Big Y, but most certainly you should test FGC18205 and Z16534 at YSeq as both have proven positive in kit N28650 (MDKA Conrardy) and I believe there is a reasonable chance you will test positive for at least one. I do not consider this location on the tree as necessarily Irish or Welsh but am open to arguments.

    Nigel McC

    Nigel, I just ordered both tests. Let us see what happens, but every time I pay for a test, regardless I find no close relatives for my Y haplogroup.
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    L21+, P312+, DF13+, DF21+, FGC3213+, Z246-, L876-, DF41-, L144-, L159-, L193-, P314-, P66-, U106-, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-

  6. #24
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    CTS4466>...>Z16259

    Mr Reith,

    Unfortunately I cannot promise you will find close relatives as a consequence of ordering these two SNPs, but if either or both are positive we will have at least removed any doubt about your position on the phylogenetic tree and I would regard that as a big step forward. It would most likely be through STR testing that we eventually find your relatives, however close, but knowing your position on the DF21 tree will be a great help in assessing suspects.

    Nigel

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     Reith (12-03-2015)

  8. #25
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    Thand you Nigel
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    L21+, P312+, DF13+, DF21+, FGC3213+, Z246-, L876-, DF41-, L144-, L159-, L193-, P314-, P66-, U106-, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-

  9. #26
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    CTS4466>...>Z16259

    Mr Reith,

    Any news on your FGC18205 and Z16534 tests yet? If you have not already, please join YSeq Group ID 32. We hope you will also join the P314 Haplogroup Project. Yes, I know you are negative for P314 but we are going to rename the project to be sure you feel included and belong somewhere!! If you prove positive for just one of these two SNPs, that will become the name of the project! If for neither we'll have to find you another one. (An NGS test - Big Y or FGC Elite 2.0 - would have sorted this out at a stroke and "banked" a string of singleton SNPs (seen only in your sample) for checking against future participants). Thank you.

    Nigel McCarthy

  10. #27
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    Just have to mail them in at a post office and then I guess we will see.
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  11. #28
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    I just joined the group as well.
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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCarthygen View Post
    Mr Reith,

    Any news on your FGC18205 and Z16534 tests yet? If you have not already, please join YSeq Group ID 32. We hope you will also join the P314 Haplogroup Project. Yes, I know you are negative for P314 but we are going to rename the project to be sure you feel included and belong somewhere!! If you prove positive for just one of these two SNPs, that will become the name of the project! If for neither we'll have to find you another one. (An NGS test - Big Y or FGC Elite 2.0 - would have sorted this out at a stroke and "banked" a string of singleton SNPs (seen only in your sample) for checking against future participants). Thank you.

    Nigel McCarthy
    Shipped off to YSEQ. Waiting on results
    Tests Taken

    L21+, P312+, DF13+, DF21+, FGC3213+, Z246-, L876-, DF41-, L144-, L159-, L193-, P314-, P66-, U106-, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-

  13. #30
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    Ok, so I am negative for both of those..

    Would this possibly mean that my ancestor was so far back in the FGC3213 tre=
    e that he could have been a continental Celt / Bell Beaker?
    Tests Taken

    L21+, P312+, DF13+, DF21+, FGC3213+, Z246-, L876-, DF41-, L144-, L159-, L193-, P314-, P66-, U106-, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-

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