M64. Origins ?

[rick_r]

As some here may know, I have received my Big Y results, which are a match for Joe_B and a few others. I am assuming that absent testing for this SNP in my group, that all that match the specific STR signature will probably be the same resulting SNP.

So, I am asking the group, where this SNP may originate from? I see an Iraqi that was trending that way on another thread, I am curious if that area could be origin of the haplogroup and mutation?

[Joe B]

As some here may know, I have received my Big Y results, which are a match for Joe_B and a few others. I am assuming that absent testing for this SNP in my group, that all that match the specific STR signature will probably be the same resulting SNP.

So, I am asking the group, where this SNP may originate from? I see an Iraqi that was trending that way on another thread, I am curious if that area could be origin of the haplogroup and mutation?

The very exclusive R1b-M64.3 club. R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2109>CTS3937>M64.3.
R1b-M64.3_14_04_19_2015.png
I'm curious if an age to the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) between us can be worked out between us.

There is a member of the Ledbetter DNA project listed as R-M64 with similar 12 STRs....#N52482 - 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 29. That would make three of us.

In order to know more about this SNP it's important to find and confirm more haplotypes. There are several surname projects that have potential R1b-M64.3 haplotypes based on STR marker values of DYS460=10, YCAII=18-23 and DYS640=12. Getting a test for M64 and CTS3937 from each Surname project could tie them together. Getting a Big Y or other NGS test from each of these surname projects would be really interesting.

Ledbetter - http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/ledbetter/results
Grant (Group E: ) - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/grant/dna-results
Carter (R1b - 15) - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/carter/about
Robbins (Robbins 1) - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
Llewellyn (R1b - Group 1) - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
Smith (R-M269 Smith Group GRP-R-M269- 1 NC-SC-TN-IL) - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background and http://www.smithsworldwide.org/smtes...g=GRP-R-M269-1

[rick_r]

The very exclusive R1b-M64.3 club. R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2109>CTS3937>M64.3.
R1b-M64.3_14_04_19_2015.png
I'm curious if an age to the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) between us can be worked out between us.

There is a member of the Ledbetter DNA project listed as R-M64 with similar 12 STRs....#N52482 - 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 29. That would make three of us.

In order to know more about this SNP it's important to find and confirm more haplotypes. There are several surname projects that have potential R1b-M64.3 haplotypes based on STR marker values of DYS460=10, YCAII=18-23 and DYS640=12. Getting a test for M64 and CTS3937 from each Surname project could tie them together. Getting a Big Y or other NGS test from each of these surname projects would be really interesting.

Ledbetter - http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/ledbetter/results
Grant (Group E: ) - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/grant/dna-results
Carter (R1b - 15) - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/carter/about
Robbins (Robbins 1) - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
Llewellyn (R1b - Group 1) - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
Smith (R-M269 Smith Group GRP-R-M269- 1 NC-SC-TN-IL) - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background and http://www.smithsworldwide.org/smtes...g=GRP-R-M269-1

What I have now is my ancestor Daniel Robins or Robinson who is placed in Scotland ca 1651 and was probably born 1627. Where his ancestry was from is anyone's guess.

[Willun98]

Hi Rick I'm R-l21-DF13- FGC13780 - Cts3937. I haven't tested past that. My surname is Middleton.
I know another CTS3937 Pruitt. I'm wondering if I should test for M64.3?

My ancestors may have come from Southeast England, but there might be a Wales or Scotland connection.
Have you Big Y tested?

Erik Middleton

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=17

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

[smal]

Erik, both Cts3937 and M64 are recurrent markers. They are presented several times in Y-Haplotree.
Your L23>L51>P311>P312>L21>DF13>FGC13780>CTS3937 line and
the L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109>CTS3937 line are completly different. A common ancestor for both clades lived about 6500 ybp

[Joe B]

Erik, both Cts3937 and M64 are recurrent markers. They are presented several times in Y-Haplotree.
Your L23>L51>P311>P312>L21>DF13>FGC13780>CTS3937 line and
the L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109>CTS3937 line are completly different. A common ancestor for both clades lived about 6500 ybp

ISOGG has added R1b-Y14416 to their tree. Y14416 is on the same phylogenetic level as CTS3937 and just upstream of R1b-M64. Y14416 does not have recurrent problems, so far.
R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416 - ISOGG
R-CTS3937 - FTDNA
R-Y14512 - YFull
R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109>Y14416, Y14512, CTS3937

M64 has the same recurrent problem that SNP CTS3937 has. Hopefully, enough testing will get done this year to qualify a suitable phylogenetic SNP for listing on the ISOOG tree.
R-M64 - FTDNA
R-Y20971 - YFull
R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109>Y14416, Y16005, CTS3937>Y20971, M64

Current YFull TMRCA estimates. Haplogroup YTree v4.05 at 31 May 2016

    R-Y14512  Y14511 * Y14512 * Y14515+9 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybp info
        R-Y14512*
        R-Y16005  Y16005 * Y16158 formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybp info (formed CI 95% 4600<->2900 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 3600<->1850 ybp)
            id:YF03694
            id:YF03317SVK [SK-TC]
        R-Y20971  Y20971 * Y20977 * A5921+12 SNPs formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp info (formed CI 95% 4600<->2900 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 3500<->1750 ybp)
            id:YF06212 new
            id:YF05848 USA [US-NY]new
            id:YF05749 SCT
            id:YF02743 DEU [DE-HE]

New subclades and TMRCA estimates should come with the new entries at the R1b-Y20971, M64 level. It's been a very productive year for this area of the haplotree.