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Thread: The Cimbri - Celtic or Germanic?

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Well, how some guys invest so much ego in their haplogroup Y always amazed me. My own secret greatest source of pleasure is my father's Mt. K1c1c, poor relic of a line of doubtless miserable women in a removed corner of Finland. To everyone his thing.
    I'm pretty sure no matter what my y haplogroup had turned out to be, I would have found something to like about it, something to be interested and to glory in. That's kind of how I'm bent, plus I loved and practically worshiped my dad. I connect my y-dna with him (naturally), so whatever it is is more than sufficient for me.

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  3. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Well, how some guys invest so much ego in their haplogroup Y always amazed me. My own secret greatest source of pleasure is my father's Mt. K1c1c, poor relic of a line of doubtless miserable women in a removed corner of Finland. To everyone his thing.
    Well, all I know about mine is that (historically, from a sample size of two) they tend to die violently away from home
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  5. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    BTW, some years back I exchanged a few emails with him. He's actually a decent guy. I think he just got carried away with the excitement of finding out he is "S28" (U152). Since he is bright and well read, naturally he turned to tracing what seemed to him the proper history of his y-chromosome ancestors.
    I have spoken to him as well via email. Nice guy who helped me update the History section of the FTDNA U152 page when I was an admin there. He does have a claim to fame as being the 1st person identified as U152/S28 via commercial testing. Dr Faux was a partner at EthnoAncestry testing. A week later, Charles Kerchner was the first customer to test positive for U152/S28. This was back in Dec 2005.

    The actual first person identified as U152/S28 was an anonymous Utah man.
    U152/S28 came to the knowledge of the scientific community through the publication of the paper Whole-Genome Patterns of Common DNA Variations in Three Human Populations by David A. Hinds et al. in Science on 18 Feb 2005. The single positive subject in the Hinds paper was NA07349, or CEPH1345-01, a Utah Mormon from the Centre d'Etude du Polymorphism Humain (CEPH) collection, available at the Coriell Institute. Dr. Pui-Yan Kwok at the University of California, San Franscisco (UCSF) had discovered this SNP prior to its submission to Single Nucleotide Polymorphism database (dbSNP) on 18 May 2004.
    More here. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background..

    As the actual date of U152's discovery is unknown, some time prior to 18 May 2004, I've unofficially adopted 18 May 2004 as the date of U152's discovery.

    May 18th: U152 Day. Feel free to take that day off and take a drink of your favorite beverage from a replica Bell Beaker
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 08-14-2019 at 12:20 AM.
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  7. #114
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    I mentioned some of that back here.

    He is essentially a nice guy, once you get to know him, but he made himself obnoxious back in those early days with his Rootsweb and then dna forums posts, as almost any R1bxU152 guy who was around then can testify.

    I have to remind myself of his email persona, because the more I recall his posts, the less charitable I feel.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-14-2019 at 01:04 AM.

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  9. #115
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    Funny thing. Apparently the OP in this thread was written by DKF himself.

    Time flies!

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  11. #116
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    Rather interesting to note the comments about me reported above.

    Actually ancient DNA has come to my rescue - big time. The Olalde et al., 2018 study shows that the majority of the Bell Beaker Y haplogroups (about 40) on the Continent were U152 + L2 (none L20). None were found in Britain (as predicted) where R-L21 was in the majority. Then there is the Margaryen et al., 2019 study of Viking era genomes which shows that on the Danish island of Funen 20% of Viking graves were R-U152 (one was L2 and the other L20 - yes, my haplogroup). Another L20 was seen on Langeland just below Funen (the predicted "hotspot" for the Cimbri descendants after the departure of the Angles after circa 447 AD). Another L2 was observed at Skara, Sweden in an area under Danish hegemony. One of the Danes murdered during the St. Brices' Day Massacre in Oxford, UK and dumped into a mass grave was R-U152. Autosomal data shows that all these R-U152/S28 had high "Danish-Like" DNA but also varying amounts of Southern European-Like DNA (as predicted since the Cimbri were in large part descended from the Celtic tribes of Switzerland and Italy who accompanied the former back to the Jutland area after the defeat by the Romans in 101 BC). The data is consistent with the original hypothesis dating back to 2005 - 14 years ago. Only ancient DNA would ever offer the icing on the cake in terms of evidence - that much I knew years ago. Surely it won't be long before we have ancient DNA data on the Angles of eastern Jutland and their descendants in eastern England (perhaps also samples from Normandy). I don't for a minute believe that U152 will predominate (likely I1 and R-U106 will outnumber all other haplogroups), but simply that R-U152/S28 will be "well representated" to the extent that it can explain the observation of a U152 affinity for the Angle regions of England, and the Danelaw.

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  13. #117
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    If I'm well understanding that you, falconson1, are actually DKF ("the comments about me"). Just want to add to what I wrote earlier that I'll be really happy if your theses eventually appear to be confirmed, and I know some familiars in my Normand countryside who will be incredibly happy. I've carefully kept all of your texts in my archives and I'm going to read them again. I have not met only polite and tactful gentlemen since I started to interest myself in the genetic matters, far from it, but as I told I kept the remembering that you were one. Friendly greetings.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  15. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    . . .

    Actually ancient DNA has come to my rescue - big time . . .
    Really?

    With regard to the Cimbri-cum-Vikings, that is debatable, not to mention highly doubtful, but on many other points it's pretty plain ancient dna did the opposite of rescuing you.

    I remember how you championed the Franco-Cantabrian LGM Refuge for R1b long after most others had abandoned it, and how you said the Proto-Indo-Europeans were chiefly R1a. I also recall claims from you that L21 arose in Ireland in the bodies of the y-line descendants of the Mesolithic Basques who had arrived there when the ice retreated at the end of the LGM.

    There was much much more, including your classic statements that for most of us M269 was it, that there simply weren't any more mutations downstream of M269 to be discovered, and that S21 and S28 (U106 and U152, for newbies who don't know the old names) were "sister clades". That last one was prior to the discovery of S116 (P312), which of course linked S28 to the rest of us lowly "Basque" serfs.

    Those boners occur to me right off the top of my head, without going and searching old posts for more.

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  17. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Actually ancient DNA has come to my rescue - big time.
    It may have actually done the opposite...

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  19. #120
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    Recognizing all the pitfalls of present day dna samples, there may be some correlation between:

    I1 and Danes/Danelaw


    U106 and Saxons & Jutes (Sussex/Wessex/Middlesex/Kent/Hampshire/Isle of Wight)


    Haplogroup I2 shows a definite correlation with eastern England, historic Anglo-Saxon areas...less represented in traditionally Celtic areas in Cornwall, along the Welsh & Scottish borders.
    it may be that I2 was most predominate in pre-beaker England, or that I2 made up a significant part of Angles/Saxons/Jutes/Vikings/Danes.


    And while there is some correlation between U152 and Angles in East Anglia (Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex), and lesser extent in Lincolnshire), the correlation is weaker in Yorshire where Angles and Danes had kingdoms.


    As I mentioned in another thread, 1.8% of the Viking samples were U152 (5 out of 276) EDIT: Using the study's spreadsheet, there are 248 males samples which would be 2.0%
    Looks like not much has changed in the last 1000 years as the present day Myres study had U152 at:
    2% of Southeast Denmark
    4.8% of North Denmark

    Of the 368 samples from Busby and Myres above, 11 were U152 which equals 2.99% today.

    Currently in the FTDNA database
    Denmark: 581 total, 15 are U152: 2.58%

    If you combine Myres, Busby and FTDNA numbers:
    Denmark: 18 of 671 are U152 (2.68%)
    But as Dr Faux stated in his paper Y-DNA Haplogroup R-U152 in Britain: Proposed Link to the 5th Century Migration of the Angle and Jute Tribes from Jutland and Fyn, Denmark (Hypothesis B )
    It is not expected that there will be many R-U152 in the homeland of the Angles (with the exception of Fyn) since there is historical and archaeological evidence that the entire area was depopulated circa 450 to 550 AD...
    if the Angles and their likely possible ancestors the Cimbri were largely or partly R-U152 (other haplogroups would also be involved), thus we should not expect to find many men in southern Jutland today who belong to this haplogroup. This would be reinforced by the fact that the regions likely to supply the incoming haplogroups (eastern Sweden and eastern Denmark) are not likely to have included males with the R-U152 haplogroup
    Within the Viking study for samples in present day Denmark
    On Funen/Fyn, 14.3% of the male samples (2 out of 14) were U152+ (VK138 = U152>L2>Z49>Z142, VK373 U152>L2>L20+)
    On Langeland, 5.9% of the male samples (1 out of 17) were U152+ (VK286 = U152>L2>L20+)
    On Jutland, 0 out of 8 males samples was U152+
    On Zealand/Sealand, 0 out of 11 males samples was U152+

    In this small sample size, U152 has a higher percentage in Funen/Fyn than in other areas of Denmark, which would support Dr Faux's position.

    While I don't disagree with Dr Faux that the Angles were partly U152, I just don't think there is sufficient evidence at this time to say they were "largely" or mostly U152.

    Based on the available data, I also don't think Angles/Danes/Vikings are the primary historical source for U152 in England.
    I tend to think the majority of U152 in Britain arrived earlier, especially from the Late Bronze and Iron Ages, and Roman period (the later especially along the English/Scottish border). In part, this is based on U152 percentages in present day Northeastern France, Belgium/Flanders, and Western Germany...origin for many of the Bronze/Iron Age, Roman Era arrivals.

    If additional data comes in that is in conflict with my opinion, I will need to reconsider this view.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 08-17-2019 at 09:37 PM.
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