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Thread: The Cimbri - Celtic or Germanic?

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Just wanted to say if you're still monitoring this thread that I downloaded and read your first two hypotheses today. I didn't agree with all you said, particularly on the linguistic evidence, but you've done a rigorous job of a kind that's rarely seen outside specialist academia. I particularly enjoyed the sections on the depopulation of the Anglian homeland and am grateful to you for making this available for all to read. I do have a question: I've seen a riposte to the Morimarusa theory but was particularly interested in this passage of yours because it seems to me the linguistic evidence is absolutely key: "Other evidence as to the language spoken by the Cimbri can be seen in the actions of the Roman intelligence service of Marius, run by Sertorius, which sent spies who spoke Gaulish Celtic into the Cimbri camp in 101 BC. They were able to understand the language of the Cimbri so they could report back details of importance to their masters." I'm not familiar with the primary source so would like to know whether it says the spies listened directly to the Cimbric leadership. Otherwise of course they could equally have overhead or spoken with the many Celts who scholars agree would inevitably have been picked up along the road by this stage. I'm sure you've considered all this but would appreciate more detail... I often wish the ancients could have anticipated our questions and firmed up more of their observations on tribes and peoples. Unfortunately it is what it is and I'm still grateful for what we have.
    Hello JonikW, it is also frustrating that translations of early Greek and Roman works are often poor (inaccurate) and inconsistent between translated versions. I have kept all of the references to what appears in my Cimbri paper, and they mostly reside in two large sized ring binders - which I have not looked at in 15 or so years. Tempting as it was, fortunately I decided not to pitch them when we moved earlier this year. I am not sure how long it will take me to locate the source of the info you are seeking (especially considering my schedule for the next few weeks). If perchance the reference is within one of the books of translated "Classical" texts on my book shelves ...... well, I will chip away at the task and report back if / when I luck upon it.

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Hello JonikW, it is also frustrating that translations of early Greek and Roman works are often poor (inaccurate) and inconsistent between translated versions. I have kept all of the references to what appears in my Cimbri paper, and they mostly reside in two large sized ring binders - which I have not looked at in 15 or so years. Tempting as it was, fortunately I decided not to pitch them when we moved earlier this year. I am not sure how long it will take me to locate the source of the info you are seeking (especially considering my schedule for the next few weeks). If perchance the reference is within one of the books of translated "Classical" texts on my book shelves ...... well, I will chip away at the task and report back if / when I luck upon it.
    Much appreciated. I'm particularly intrigued based on something I posted at #22 here today regarding the possibility of Celts in 4th century Friesland. I'm always ready to have my assumptions overturned if the evidence is there.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  5. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Hello JonikW, it is also frustrating that translations of early Greek and Roman works are often poor (inaccurate) and inconsistent between translated versions. I have kept all of the references to what appears in my Cimbri paper, and they mostly reside in two large sized ring binders - which I have not looked at in 15 or so years. Tempting as it was, fortunately I decided not to pitch them when we moved earlier this year. I am not sure how long it will take me to locate the source of the info you are seeking (especially considering my schedule for the next few weeks). If perchance the reference is within one of the books of translated "Classical" texts on my book shelves ...... well, I will chip away at the task and report back if / when I luck upon it.
    As luck would have it, I located my source re the above. I had put tabs and an index in the two binders listing the contents of each. Anyway, the secondary source is Henri Hubert, "The Greatness and Decline of the Celts", Chapter IV, "Celts and Germans", Legan, Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co. 1934 (new edition published by Columbia University Press, 2003) - no page numbers in my copy. Hubert cites Mommsen, CCCLIX, ii, p. 172 as his reference for the statement. I am guessing that more can be found in Plutarch, "Life of Gaius Marius" in "Plutarch Lives", 1st ed., 11 volumes, translated by Bernadotte Perrin, London: W. Heinemann, 1914-1926. Good luck in tracking all this down, "if you should chose to accept the assignment".

    I should further note that Hubert states, "Marius's intelligence service, run by Sertorius, took the trouble to learn Celtic, and found that language sufficient" (again Mommsen). So questions still remain, e.g., what does "sufficient" imply here? Perhaps even Plutarch may not give a precise statement which would clear up your original question.
    Last edited by falconson1; 08-21-2019 at 07:23 PM.

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  7. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Think I will retreat from this thread - for obvious reasons. The USA has been very good to this Canadian with an Appalachian - Ozark wife, and I take great exception to slights by foreign people against the country which has given me so many opportunities.
    Hello falconson,

    I wouldn’t let it bother you. No matter where you go there’s always one.
    Last edited by JMcB; 08-21-2019 at 07:31 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  9. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    As luck would have it, I located my source re the above. I had put tabs and an index in the two binders listing the contents of each. Anyway, the secondary source is Henri Hubert, "The Greatness and Decline of the Celts", Chapter IV, "Celts and Germans", Legan, Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co. 1934 (new edition published by Columbia University Press, 2003) - no page numbers in my copy. Hubert cites Mommsen, CCCLIX, ii, p. 172 as his reference for the statement. I am guessing that more can be found in Plutarch, "Life of Gaius Marius" in "Plutarch Lives", 1st ed., 11 volumes, translated by Bernadotte Perrin, London: W. Heinemann, 1914-1926. Good luck in tracking all this down, "if you should chose to accept the assignment".

    I should further note that Hubert states, "Marius's intelligence service, run by Sertorius, took the trouble to learn Celtic, and found that language sufficient" (again Mommsen). So questions still remain, e.g., what does "sufficient" imply here? Perhaps even Plutarch may not give a precise statement which would clear up your original question.
    Yes, there are nearly always questions and gaps. I often wish Caesar and Tacitus could have added a few words from dialects and languages, among many other things. I appreciate your reply, and thanks for rekindling my interest in a people who struck such terror into Rome.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

  10. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by glentane View Post
    Dobber. In what way is that person a woman? Or even a gaidhilig speaker? Explain to a simple-minded Scotsman please. The very one wearing identical breeks to the so-called Cernunnos and every single one of the poor bloody infantry depicted?

    This one. Rubbish tits for a start (my specialist subject, ladies), don't even think of defending the rest of "it".
    https://thenewpagan.files.wordpress....pg?w=300&h=242
    tl;dr americans are mental there is no cure.
    Desperate. Get yourselves a proper culture. Maybe ask the Appalachian folk if you can steal theirs?
    I'm very confused by this statement. Does Appalachian culture not 'count' as American culture despite emerging out of Anglo-American settler traditions?

    Odd thing. You limeys have a tendency towards a fatal combination of both ignorance and arrogance. Never a sensible sight when it rears its head.

  11. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Oh, yes. I remember when we were all stuck at M269, and he said that was it for us. Our ancestors were "the cast of thousands" who formed the faceless backdrop for the heroic exploits of his ancestors, the La Tene Celts-cum Cimbri-cum Danish Vikings.

    He was a big advocate of the term "invader y-dna" to refer to I-M253 (the old I1a), R1b-S21 (U106), and, first and foremost, to R1b-S28 (U152) in the British Isles. The rest of us were descended from the lowly native cavemen, who were really Basques (we were supposed to be thrilled about that).

    He was also amongst the most ardent holdouts for the Iberian LGM Refuge, although he subsequently admitted he was wrong on that score and apologized for it.

    George van der Merwede invited him from Rootsweb over to dna forums and considered it a big coup when he accepted and showed up, since DKF was considered kind of a dna celebrity back in those days.
    It is interesting looking back on old theories. A lot of people believed in the old Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge. Even then I couldn't understand how all these populations were from there and the differences in autosomal dna. How did people ever explain that? Was it ever mentioned in discussions?

    Anyway a lot of water under the bridge now.

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  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Think I will retreat from this thread - for obvious reasons. The USA has been very good to this Canadian with an Appalachian - Ozark wife, and I take great exception to slights by foreign people against the country which has given me so many opportunities.
    Apologies for OT
    But just so you're aware there is an individual we know as "Calas" who goes through a cycle of getting banned and re-making new accounts each time and often says some pretty outrageous or offensive things as this individual has some pretty strange ideas they want to perpetuate. The moderators do their best but this individual has persisted here in the time span of years now and I doubt they'll go away completely no matter how often they are banned. Most people here are pretty reasonable but you'll probably encounter this individual as well during your time here if you have not already.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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  15. #149
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    Note
    The cimbri of jutland denmark have no association with tge cimbri from bavaria which went to north italy circa 12th century


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

  16. #150
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    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Austria Tirol
    Note
    The cimbri of jutland denmark have no association with tge cimbri from bavaria which went to north italy circa 12th century


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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