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Thread: The Cimbri - Celtic or Germanic?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peccavi View Post
    No - Leeds was in the centre of the British Kingdom of Elmet until eliminated by the Anglian Northumberians (about 603AD if my memory is correct). The latest genetic data tends to confirm That West Yorkshire is quite distinct from the majority of England.

    I believe you will find there was little Anglian immigration.
    Yes Elmet in West Yorkshire appears (from all available sources) to have been a Brythonic enclave which somehow managed to keep the marauding Angles and Saxons from overrunning their homeland. Thus finding low levels of haplogroups such as U152 is precisely what would be expected considering that the latter hugged the eastern coastal areas.

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    I personally feel if P312 made it as far north as Scandinavia to birth L238, then certainly it would be expected to find P312 in amongs Danes, Jutes, Angles, Frisians, and Saxons. I really believe that the German migrations brough P312 back into areas that it was already present. The only way to distinguish would be ADna and specific downstream clades of larger P312 clades that seem specifically extreme northern European.

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  4. #13
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    My fascination with the Cimbri began with the knowledge that this people buried what must have been likely their most prized treasures (including the Tollund Man?), probably to appease the gods and keep the floods at bay. The most impressive artifact of all is entirely Celtic in iconography, but was likely made in the Balkans (Illyrium included an eastern Celtic people who apparently migrated from Gaul - eventually reaching central Anatolia).

    Here is an overview of the Gundestrup Cauldron: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_cauldron. The sheer beauty of the object, and the hints as to the cultural practices of the people who made or possessed it, make it an object of wonder. Seeing it up close gave me an attack of the vapours. Fortunately my wife who is a nurse of Southern Appalachian ancestry, was there to revive me :-)
    Last edited by falconson1; 04-21-2015 at 09:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    it occurs that before writing her new book on the Celts, Jean may wish to consider the controversy around the origins of the Cimbri.
    Before writing it? The book was written last year. There have been changes to text during the process of knocking it into shape for publication. I have been squeezing in the latest papers until the last minute. But I am now in the final round of proof-reading. It will be handed over to production shortly.
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-21-2015 at 10:25 PM.

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Indeed, I would predict that ancient DNA will show the Saxons to have been largely I1a and R-U106/S21 (as is the case there today). U152 is largely found in the area south of Frankfurt to the Alps, and deep into the Italian Peninsula. Thus the Cimbri, whose artifact assemblage strongly suggests Celtic, were likely an enclave containing whatever Celtic haplotypes were common in say the area around Lake Constance (where they found their most staunchest allies). Indeed, U152 would have been likely but one of a number of key haplogroups. I am hoping that Jean addresses the probable Y haplogroups of the core Hallstatt and LaTene areas - which would in turn provide a hint as to what one might expect in Iron Age Himmerland, Denmark.
    If the Angles were predominately U152/S28 with little U106/S21, then one would have to explain how so much U106 got into the Angle occupied areas of Britain.
    If one assumes the Angles and Saxons were both predominantly U106 then the distribution of U106 in Britain is much easier to understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    It seems to me U152 in Britain is more likely to have come first with the Belgae and then received a reinforcing shot with the Romans than it is to have had anything to do with the Angles or the Cimbri. It would be interesting to hear Rich Rocca's take on all this, however, since he is far more conversant with the latest U152 subclade developments than I am.

    In Britain, U152 is most frequent in what is now SE England, at least according to Busby, but it isn't nearly as frequent in Busby's Leeds sample location, which I believe would have been within the old kingdom of Northumbria, which was an Anglian kingdom.

    Still, as you said, ancient y-dna is what is needed. All these arguments from modern haplogroup distributions are so seven years ago.
    Could you clarify the time frame when you say the Belgae arrived in Britain?

    I ask because I recently learned some sources refer to the "first Belgic invasion" and the "Second Belgic invasion" of Britain. These sources equate the first one to La Tene's arrival in Britain and the 2nd refers to their arrival around the 100BC to 75BC time frame.

    Prior to learning this I assumed everyone was referring to the more recent time frame and thus all my previous posts on the Belgae were based on this later arrival. I've always referred to the "first Belgic invasion" as La Tene.

    Just want to make sure we all singing from the same sheet of music.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-21-2015 at 11:37 PM.
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  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peccavi View Post
    No - Leeds was in the centre of the British Kingdom of Elmet until eliminated by the Anglian Northumberians (about 603AD if my memory is correct). The latest genetic data tends to confirm That West Yorkshire is quite distinct from the majority of England.

    I believe you will find there was little Anglian immigration.
    Well, all of what is now England belonged to the Britons before being taken over by the Anglo-Saxons. I believe if you look at the map of old Northumbria, you will find that Leeds was eventually in Northumbria. Its status as part of Elmet prior to becoming part of Northumbria is irrelevant to that fact.

    Honestly, I don't know how much Anglian immigration there was to the area of Leeds, but it was in Northumbria, and that was an Anglian kingdom, and the people there did come to speak English. The autosomal distinction of the modern people of that area is not really the topic at issue in this case. The idea being proposed was that U152 in England should be associated with Angles. Its relatively high frequency in SE England was suggested as some evidence of that. However, since Northumbria was an Anglian kingdom, one would expect, if U152 is really connected to the Angles, an elevated U152 frequency there, as well. Since that is not the case, perhaps the U152=Angles hypothesis is incorrect.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Could you clarify the time frame when you say the Belgae arrived in Britain?

    I ask because I recently learned some sources refer to the "first Belgic invasion" and the "Second Belgic invasion" of Britain. These sources equate the first one to La Tene's arrival in Britain and the 2nd refers to their arrival around the 100BC to 75BC time frame.

    Prior to learning this I assumed everyone was referring to the more recent time frame and thus all my previous posts on the Belgae were based on this later arrival. I've always referred to the "first Belgic invasion" as La Tene.

    Just want to make sure we all singing from the same sheet of music.
    I had the later arrival in mind.
     


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  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Before writing it? The book was written last year. There have been changes to text during the process of knocking it into shape for publication. I have been squeezing in the latest papers until the last minute. But I am now in the final round of proof-reading. It will be handed over to production shortly.
    Surely this could amount to a "hold the presses" situation. I mean we are talking about the Cimbri here :-)

  17. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, all of what is now England belonged to the Britons before being taken over by the Anglo-Saxons. I believe if you look at the map of old Northumbria, you will find that Leeds was eventually in Northumbria. Its status as part of Elmet prior to becoming part of Northumbria is irrelevant to that fact.

    Honestly, I don't know how much Anglian immigration there was to the area of Leeds, but it was in Northumbria, and that was an Anglian kingdom, and the people there did come to speak English. The autosomal distinction of the modern people of that area is not really the topic at issue in this case. The idea being proposed was that U152 in England should be associated with Angles. Its relatively high frequency in SE England was suggested as some evidence of that. However, since Northumbria was an Anglian kingdom, one would expect, if U152 is really connected to the Angles, an elevated U152 frequency there, as well. Since that is not the case, perhaps the U152=Angles hypothesis is incorrect.
    As I recall, and I don't have the most current maps at my disposal (am bouncing between homes), U152 is elevated all along the eastern coast even into Scotland. I recall that Dr. Jim Wilson called S28/U152 an "east coast haplogroup". If Northumberland is a little low in the U152 department, it is entirely possible that migrations were family and village events (as indicated by the historical and archaeological sources) and that U152 would have been a very significant part of those who became East Angles, and tapering off in the northern Angle sectors. We don't know key data. Was U152 higher in say the Arhus area and U106/S21 common further south in Schleiswig? Present day distribution may be deceptive if the area was largely depopulated. I hope to hang around long enough to see European maps of Iron Age YDNA maps. If I am very lucky, perhaps I will learn how my L20 ended up in East Anglia (perhaps by network analysis if sample sizes increase by a factor of 10).

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