Page 3 of 14 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 138

Thread: The Cimbri - Celtic or Germanic?

  1. #21
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Surely this could amount to a "hold the presses" situation. I mean we are talking about the Cimbri here :-)
    We seem to have a philosophical difference here. You feel that it is an urgent necessity for me to deliver a critique of an online essay that you haven't thought about in years, while I feel that it is an urgent necessity for me to collapse in a heap and catch up on my sleep, after many months of solid slog.
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-22-2015 at 02:50 AM.

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-22-2015),  Gray Fox (04-22-2015),  MikeWhalen (05-28-2016),  rms2 (04-22-2015)

  3. #22
    Registered Users
    Posts
    69
    Sex
    Location
    Los Angeles, California; Grand River, Ontario
    Nationality
    Canadian
    mtDNA (M)
    K1b2b
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L2>L20

    Canada United States of America California Republic United Kingdom Germany South Africa
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    We seem to have a philosophical difference here. You feel that it is an urgent necessity for me to deliver a critique of an online essay that you haven't thought about in years, while I feel that it is an urgent necessity for me to collapse in a heap and catch up on my sleep, after many months of solid slog.
    Ok Jean, you have uncovered one of my few and fleeting flaws - a wee bit of procrastination. You are absolutely correct, I had not thought of this subject since my return from Scandinavia 4 years ago - and have not written a word about the topic since the date on my manuscript.

    To be fair to myself, I only joined this forum a week ago and did not know of your books (I thoroughly enjoyed your earlier book which I ordered the day I joined the forum, and which arrived a few days ago). Realistically all I can do is advocate for this fascinating Iron Age tribe, trusting that they be given due consideration in your update to "Ancestral Journeys".

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to falconson1 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-22-2015)

  5. #23
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,774
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a1
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2b- Z19945

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Austria Tirol Australia Eureka
    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Indeed, I would predict that ancient DNA will show the Saxons to have been largely I1a and R-U106/S21 (as is the case there today). U152 is largely found in the area south of Frankfurt to the Alps, and deep into the Italian Peninsula. Thus the Cimbri, whose artifact assemblage strongly suggests Celtic, were likely an enclave containing whatever Celtic haplotypes were common in say the area around Lake Constance (where they found their most staunchest allies). Indeed, U152 would have been likely but one of a number of key haplogroups. I am hoping that Jean addresses the probable Y haplogroups of the core Hallstatt and LaTene areas - which would in turn provide a hint as to what one might expect in Iron Age Himmerland, Denmark.
    Lake Constance has many names for many periods of time and also named differently between the upper lake and the lower lake.



    We assume with great correctness that the vindelici tribe where celts because they created La Tene , but lacus Venetus ( lower lake ) was always under Rhaetian control


    Mela, Livy, Strabo, Pliny and a few other Roman historians all had different versions of the area and its people
    Last edited by vettor; 04-22-2015 at 06:47 AM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

  6. #24
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    11,629
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-FGC36981

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    As I recall, and I don't have the most current maps at my disposal (am bouncing between homes), U152 is elevated all along the eastern coast even into Scotland. I recall that Dr. Jim Wilson called S28/U152 an "east coast haplogroup". If Northumberland is a little low in the U152 department, it is entirely possible that migrations were family and village events (as indicated by the historical and archaeological sources) and that U152 would have been a very significant part of those who became East Angles, and tapering off in the northern Angle sectors. We don't know key data. Was U152 higher in say the Arhus area and U106/S21 common further south in Schleiswig? Present day distribution may be deceptive if the area was largely depopulated. I hope to hang around long enough to see European maps of Iron Age YDNA maps. If I am very lucky, perhaps I will learn how my L20 ended up in East Anglia (perhaps by network analysis if sample sizes increase by a factor of 10).
    All of Busby's sample locations in England are in the east except the one in Exeter. U152 reaches its English maximum in the England SE sample, where it was 15.4% (and U106=27%, P312xL21,U152=21.2%). A little farther north, in the east England sample, U152=8.1%. In Busby's Central England sample, U152=9.7%. A little farther west, in the England Central sample borrowed from Myres, U152=0%. The Exeter sample from SW England showed U152=8.3%. At the sample location in Leeds, U152=6.4%. Busby's NE Scotland location showed U152 at 4.5%. Its Orkney location showed U152 at 3.6%, and its NW Scotland location showed U152 at 0%.

    Of course, all that is modern stuff and doesn't really tell the story conclusively.

    Denmark is pretty low in U152: 2% in the southeast and 4.8% in the north. But you're arguing from Bede that that is to be expected because the Angles pulled out lock, stock, and barrel. Maybe.

    I just think it makes more sense that the Angles were probably not much on the U152 side but were more typically Scandinavian, probably largely I-M253 and R1b-U106. I would look for the source of the U152 in what is now England in areas that have more U152 in them than England has and that we know contributed people to the English mix. For example, we know the Belgae settled in what is now England beginning in the 2nd century BC. There were Belgic tribes in what is now SE and SW England; the latter would explain the relatively high level of U152 in Busby's Exeter sample, which would be hard to attribute to Angles. We also know the Romans conquered what is now England, and their settlements were thickest where U152 is also thickest.

    It is remotely possible that the Cimbri were largely U152 and that the Angles were descendants of theirs who became Germanized before taking part in the movement to Britain in the immediate post-Roman period. But that seems a stretch to me with nothing really to commend it, especially when there were known movements of population to what is now England from places that are much more plentiful in U152 than the old home of the Angles was ever likely to have been.

    But who knows? Anything is possible. Maybe some ancient y-dna will turn up and prove you right. Stranger things have happened.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  7. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-22-2015),  Captain Nordic (08-30-2016),  Gray Fox (04-22-2015),  Reith (04-22-2015)

  8. #25
    Registered Users
    Posts
    69
    Sex
    Location
    Los Angeles, California; Grand River, Ontario
    Nationality
    Canadian
    mtDNA (M)
    K1b2b
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L2>L20

    Canada United States of America California Republic United Kingdom Germany South Africa
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    But who knows? Anything is possible. Maybe some ancient y-dna will turn up and prove you right. Stranger things have happened.
    Indeed. I can continue to make various arguments that may have some pretty good face validity, but am well aware that it is just words and that the simplistic association of Central European Celtic = U152 may be shown to be completely off the wall inaccurate when we have ancient DNA to offer us the clarity we need. I am still predicting, however, that the Hochdorf Prince will test U152, and that we will find Celtic / U152 enclaves in predicted (e.g., associated with the Baltic amber trade along the northeastern shores of Jutland) and unpredicted / surprise regions. What most of us want is simply the truth, and we can only hope that population geneticists put as much effort into studying Iron Age remains as they have in studying Neanderthal samples.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to falconson1 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-22-2015),  rms2 (04-22-2015)

  10. #26
    Registered Users
    Posts
    69
    Sex
    Location
    Los Angeles, California; Grand River, Ontario
    Nationality
    Canadian
    mtDNA (M)
    K1b2b
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>L2>L20

    Canada United States of America California Republic United Kingdom Germany South Africa
    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Lake Constance has many names for many periods of time and also named differently between the upper lake and the lower lake.
    It makes sense that the people of Lake Constance and surrounds are descendants of the Lake Dweller tradition that involved Alpine areas of Italy, Germany, and of course Switzerland. What was their relationship to the La Tene people, or the various tribes who lived in the Lago Como region at the time of Livy's history of the region? I tried to tie together all the streams of evidence available circa 2005, and somewhere have the pdf I wrote on the subject. Hopefully it will surface and was not a casualty of one of the various computer crashes experienced of late. It all became more meaningful or 3 dimensional when I visited one of the recreated Lake Dweller sites in Switzerland some years back - purchasing two replica pendants, copies of those found at that particular site. It is only through visiting open air museums such as this and the complex at Heunenberg that one gets a robust understanding on the rich cultural heritage of Europe (primed by reading every book available on the subject). I had exactly the same experience (enthusiastic wonder) in visiting Kyongju in Korea, touring the burial mounds of the Korean monarchs, and seeing the Buddhist Temple built on the legendary site of the origin of the first Kim (my first grandchild's paternal lineage). There is a world beyond the Cimbri :-)

  11. #27
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,506
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    It is remotely possible that the Cimbri were largely U152 and that the Angles were descendants of theirs who became Germanized before taking part in the movement to Britain in the immediate post-Roman period. But that seems a stretch to me with nothing really to commend it, especially when there were known movements of population to what is now England from places that are much more plentiful in U152 than the old home of the Angles was ever likely to have been.
    I agree, there is no data that points to this being a realistic scenario.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  12. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-22-2015),  Captain Nordic (08-30-2016),  Michał (04-29-2015),  rms2 (04-22-2015)

  13. #28
    Registered Users
    Posts
    28
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, all of what is now England belonged to the Britons before being taken over by the Anglo-Saxons. I believe if you look at the map of old Northumbria, you will find that Leeds was eventually in Northumbria. Its status as part of Elmet prior to becoming part of Northumbria is irrelevant to that fact.

    Honestly, I don't know how much Anglian immigration there was to the area of Leeds, but it was in Northumbria, and that was an Anglian kingdom, and the people there did come to speak English. The autosomal distinction of the modern people of that area is not really the topic at issue in this case. The idea being proposed was that U152 in England should be associated with Angles. Its relatively high frequency in SE England was suggested as some evidence of that. However, since Northumbria was an Anglian kingdom, one would expect, if U152 is really connected to the Angles, an elevated U152 frequency there, as well. Since that is not the case, perhaps the U152=Angles hypothesis is incorrect.
    Afraid you are quite wrong.

    If you know anything about the area you will realise that Elmet had quite a long history for a British Kingdom in England. In the latter stages it was squeezed by Mercia from the South and Northumberia from the East and North. The excuse for the Northumberian invasion being that it was harbouring a pretender to the Northumbrian throne. Whilst the elite would have been replaced - the royal family fled - the area is mostly Pennine, hilly, poor soil and rather unattractive if you are an Anglian farmer from the Vale of York. If you need more convincing, I would be happy to provide more explanation. But it would not surprise me that the current population has a low percentage of Anglo-Saxon genes (please excuse the my complete lack of knowledge of genetics - I am stronger on history).

  14. #29
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    11,629
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-FGC36981

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I was wrong about Leeds being in what became Northumbria? I was right.

    You can argue that the Angles did not go there, and the population in the area of Leeds remained virtually unchanged after it became part of the Anglian kingdom of Northumbria. I don't really believe that; after all, U106 from Busby's Leeds sample location was 21.3%, and it got there somehow.
    Last edited by rms2; 04-22-2015 at 03:41 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Kopfjäger (04-22-2015)

  16. #30
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,774
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a1
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2b- Z19945

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Austria Tirol Australia Eureka
    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    It makes sense that the people of Lake Constance and surrounds are descendants of the Lake Dweller tradition that involved Alpine areas of Italy, Germany, and of course Switzerland. What was their relationship to the La Tene people, or the various tribes who lived in the Lago Como region at the time of Livy's history of the region? I tried to tie together all the streams of evidence available circa 2005, and somewhere have the pdf I wrote on the subject. Hopefully it will surface and was not a casualty of one of the various computer crashes experienced of late. It all became more meaningful or 3 dimensional when I visited one of the recreated Lake Dweller sites in Switzerland some years back - purchasing two replica pendants, copies of those found at that particular site. It is only through visiting open air museums such as this and the complex at Heunenberg that one gets a robust understanding on the rich cultural heritage of Europe (primed by reading every book available on the subject). I had exactly the same experience (enthusiastic wonder) in visiting Kyongju in Korea, touring the burial mounds of the Korean monarchs, and seeing the Buddhist Temple built on the legendary site of the origin of the first Kim (my first grandchild's paternal lineage). There is a world beyond the Cimbri :-)
    Thanks

    To finalise this...........there are many many people who assume a celtic origin for a place becuase of its name, an example, Augsburg
    The city was founded in 15 BC by Drusus and Tiberius as Augusta Vindelicorum (Latin pronunciation: [awˈɡuːsta wɪndɛlɪˈkoːrʊ̃] English pronunciation of Latin: /aʊˈɡuːstə vɪnˈdɛlɪˌkoʊrəm/[4]), on the orders of their stepfather Emperor Augustus. The name means "Augusta of the Vindelici". This garrison camp soon became the capital of the Roman province of Raetia.

    Early development was due to a 400-year affiliation with the Roman Empire, especially because of its excellent military, economic and geographic position at the convergence of the Alpine rivers Lech and Wertach, and with direct access to most important Alpine passes


    we clearly have a celtic name for a town, where no town existed prior to Romans arriving ..........but given a "celtic" name by the Romans, but is it celtic or just Roman in origin. The year of 15BC was the time when Rome conquered the 45 tribes of the alpine areas.

    The other issues are the Roman system of adding tribes/people of the same ethnic origin within a designated Roman named province ( Regio )

    An example, of Regio .........where Romans placed the same people in the same area for administration and "punishment" issues against Rome

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...asto_25%29.jpg

    The Vindelici and Rhaetia where joined under Raetia regio ..................!
    Last edited by vettor; 04-22-2015 at 06:48 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

Page 3 of 14 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 360
    Last Post: 12-19-2015, 10:40 AM
  2. How did R1a subclades enter into Germanic cultures?
    By Mikewww in forum R1a General
    Replies: 62
    Last Post: 07-29-2015, 01:28 PM
  3. Replies: 120
    Last Post: 03-16-2015, 04:57 AM
  4. ancient Central Germanic data
    By vettor in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 89
    Last Post: 10-05-2014, 02:29 AM
  5. Replies: 47
    Last Post: 09-28-2013, 05:35 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •