Welsh and DF21

[David Mc]

Well, his only close matches have Welsh surnames (Reece, Griffith) or have a surname supposedly of Cumbrian origin (Baty). Cumbria and Cymru (i.e., "Wales") come from the same Brythonic root, so we are probably talking about not two close Welsh haplotype neighbors, but three.

I don't see any reason for Reith to think his ancestry might be Irish just because he is DF21+.

I am very happy to bow to your wisdom on this, rms. You're better equipped to make these connections than I.

[rms2]

I am very happy to bow to your wisdom on this, rms. You're better equipped to make these connections than I.

I don't know what wisdom I have, but thanks.

[Reith]

Eurogenes K15 shows up something interesting. His Baltic is really low compared to eastern Euro - a pattern which you see in many other British people. Although overall it looks just like a more unusual result for a modern day British person. He looks more extremely northwestern Euro, which is interesting. Apparently closest to West Scottish and Irish using Euclidean distance.

Well, all four of my grandparent's parents or grandparents came from Northern Germany with possibly one being from somewhere in Scandinavia, specifically the Northwest. Hannover, Hamburg, Oldenburgh, etc. Do British people get Sweden, Norway and Denmark as their matches too? I am no means an expert at this, but my Swedish is really not much further than my North German. It is not until you go down furthern until you see Southeast England, which was at a time Belgic and then very Germanic after the migration period.

Using 1 population approximation:

1 North_German @ 6.339834
2 Swedish @ 6.564004
3 North_Swedish @ 7.275739
4 Norwegian @ 7.391794
5 Danish @ 7.613762
6 North_Dutch @ 7.653378
7 East_German @ 8.543875
8 West_German @ 9.367972
9 South_Dutch @ 9.843406
10 Southeast_English @ 10.257219
11 West_Norwegian @ 10.276397
12 Irish @ 10.364018
13 Southwest_English @ 10.550762
14 Southwest_Finnish @ 10.685708
15 West_Scottish @ 10.736671
16 Orcadian @ 12.302310
17 Hungarian @ 13.303087
18 Finnish @ 13.989597
19 Austrian @ 14.567246
20 French @ 15.126334

[JRW]

Christian, I recommend that you look at all of the evidence to “connect the dots”: 1) your paper trail ancestry; 2) your surname’s geographical affiliation; and 3) the genetic evidence. All contribute to forming a picture that although incomplete, is a better picture than achieved by looking at only one set of information.

First, given your patrilineal paper trail ancestry is German (and presuming you’re confident in its accuracy), I suggest a German (geographic) ancestral origin remain as a working assumption until other evidence suggests otherwise.

Second, your surname’s geographical affiliation is German. Surname profilers indicate that the relative distribution/concentration of your surname is highest in Landkreiss Fulda, Hesse, although it also has concentrations in Lower Saxony and Baden-Württemburg. This information is consistent with your paper trail ancestral record.

Third, the genetic evidence is consistent in its pattern with many other L21>DF13 men of German ancestry: no close STR matches either on the Continent or in the Isles. NGS SNP testing has allowed us to sort through the noise of STR matches arising from STR convergence. Your SNP tests indicate that you are DF21>FGC3213. The FGC3213 subclade can be further divided into P314.2, S3058, Z30228 and S7150 (per Alex Williamson's The Big Tree). Since you have tested negative for P314.2, you do not share a close relationship with any of the tested or “presumed” P314.2 men given you have an average GD of 16 @ 67 STR markers and 27 @ 111 STR markers with that subclade (i.e., you are equally related to all of them regardless of the closeness/distance of a particular match within the subclade). And, even though you have not tested for S3058, your average GD is 23 @ 67 STR markers (closest match is a GD of 17), suggesting a distant relationship to the S3058 subclade. You have average GDs greater than 24 @ 67 markers for all the other downstream FGC3213 subclades. (These distances calculated from Mike Walsh's L21 spreadsheet.) Lastly, you are even more distantly related to the descendants of the brother subclades to FGC3213, such as S5201. These genetic distances suggest that your closest common patrilineal ancestor with your Isle’s cousins lived about 1600 years ago (rough estimate) and other Isles relationships are substantially older, dating to the Iron Age or potentially earlier.

An interesting observation about your surname's highest relative density is that similar to most of the men of German ancestry in DF21’s brother clade FGC5494, it peaks in a Landkreiss within a relatively short distance (30 miles) of major Celtic oppida dating from the Halstatt and La Tène periods: the Glauberg in your instance and the Donnersburg in the case of the FGC5494 men. This may indicate that the well-attested Celtic activity in these areas during the Iron Age is the probable source of your common ancestry with men in the Isles. Additionally, having distant cousins whose surnames hotspot to north-eastern France in common with your Isles’ cousins suggests that the Belgae may have been the conduit (many of the Belgae tribes asserted a German/right-bank-of-the-Rhine origin).

Layer onto the above points the ancient DNA grave finding of DF21 in Hinxton, an area in the Isles known to have Belgae settlement, the building evidence that R1b appears to have spread from the Pontic Steppe westward about 4500 years ago, and that a haplogroup ancestor of DF21, P312, has been found in 3000 year-old burials in what is now central/eastern Germany, the more likely scenario is that your ancestry is a continental legacy of FGC3213’s and DF21’s continental origins and not the other way around.

[Reith]

Thank you for the insight JRW!

[Gray Fox]

Discussion of Hinxton Celt/DF21 merged to http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...21-Z246/page16

[Reith]

Just received a new match of GD 6 on 67 markers. Surname is German with a concentration in Bavaria.

Hmmmmm.... Maybe a Celtic holdover like presumably my ancestor...

[Rory Cain]

The topic does read "Welsh and DF21" but perhaps the lack of such discussion has deterred some would-be contributors for participating. While they appear to have been left out of the discussion, there are actaually some Welsh DF21. Make of them what you will, but they include at least the following:
FGC3903 >> L1446 principally north Wales surnames, Griffith, Hughes, Jones, etc. and some surnames that match villages on the English side of the border, Davenport and Hodnett.
FGC3903 >> Z29528 Humphreys from the Llyn Peninsula, north Wales although his matches are principally the Nisbet clan of Scotland.
FGC3903 >> DF25 Rydderch
S5488 >> Z16294 Evans, Harris, Jones, Morgan & Wilson
S5488 >> possibly BY518 Jones
S971 > Z16267 Harbour
DF21 miscellaneous Jones

The above discussion appears to focus so heavily on FGC3213, of whom there may or may not be any Welsh, that it overlooked the Welsh contingent in the other three sub-clades of DF21. They could just prove to be significant.

[Rory Cain]

An interesting DF25+ Welsh cluster bearing the surname Griffith(s) claim descent from Rhys ap Rhydderch of Wales bc 1275/ 1280. One of them expands his ancestral further, as Rhys ap Rhydderch ap Cydifor ap Dinawal of Gwynned. I cannot vouch for the pedigree. It represents an ambitious claim, the rulers of Gwynned being the major Welsh dynasty. A matter worthy of further investigation.