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Thread: Welsh and DF21

  1. #21
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    K1a4a1

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, his only close matches have Welsh surnames (Reece, Griffith) or have a surname supposedly of Cumbrian origin (Baty). Cumbria and Cymru (i.e., "Wales") come from the same Brythonic root, so we are probably talking about not two close Welsh haplotype neighbors, but three.

    I don't see any reason for Reith to think his ancestry might be Irish just because he is DF21+.
    I am very happy to bow to your wisdom on this, rms. You're better equipped to make these connections than I.

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  3. #22
    Gold Class Member
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    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
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    U5a2c3a
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    R1b-DF27>DF83
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    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by David Mc View Post
    I am very happy to bow to your wisdom on this, rms. You're better equipped to make these connections than I.
    I don't know what wisdom I have, but thanks.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY168> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1a

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post

    Eurogenes K15 shows up something interesting. His Baltic is really low compared to eastern Euro - a pattern which you see in many other British people. Although overall it looks just like a more unusual result for a modern day British person. He looks more extremely northwestern Euro, which is interesting. Apparently closest to West Scottish and Irish using Euclidean distance.
    Well, all four of my grandparent's parents or grandparents came from Northern Germany with possibly one being from somewhere in Scandinavia, specifically the Northwest. Hannover, Hamburg, Oldenburgh, etc. Do British people get Sweden, Norway and Denmark as their matches too? I am no means an expert at this, but my Swedish is really not much further than my North German. It is not until you go down furthern until you see Southeast England, which was at a time Belgic and then very Germanic after the migration period.

    Using 1 population approximation:

    1 North_German @ 6.339834
    2 Swedish @ 6.564004
    3 North_Swedish @ 7.275739
    4 Norwegian @ 7.391794
    5 Danish @ 7.613762
    6 North_Dutch @ 7.653378
    7 East_German @ 8.543875
    8 West_German @ 9.367972
    9 South_Dutch @ 9.843406
    10 Southeast_English @ 10.257219
    11 West_Norwegian @ 10.276397
    12 Irish @ 10.364018
    13 Southwest_English @ 10.550762
    14 Southwest_Finnish @ 10.685708
    15 West_Scottish @ 10.736671
    16 Orcadian @ 12.302310
    17 Hungarian @ 13.303087
    18 Finnish @ 13.989597
    19 Austrian @ 14.567246
    20 French @ 15.126334
    Last edited by Reith; 05-27-2015 at 07:00 PM.
    Tests Taken

    L21+, P312+, DF13+, DF21+, FGC3213+, Z246-, L876-, DF41-, L144-, L159-, L193-, P314-, P66-, U106-, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-

  5. #24
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    K1b2a2

    United States of America Germany Poland Netherlands Belgium
    Christian, I recommend that you look at all of the evidence to “connect the dots”: 1) your paper trail ancestry; 2) your surname’s geographical affiliation; and 3) the genetic evidence. All contribute to forming a picture that although incomplete, is a better picture than achieved by looking at only one set of information.

    First, given your patrilineal paper trail ancestry is German (and presuming you’re confident in its accuracy), I suggest a German (geographic) ancestral origin remain as a working assumption until other evidence suggests otherwise.

    Second, your surname’s geographical affiliation is German. Surname profilers indicate that the relative distribution/concentration of your surname is highest in Landkreiss Fulda, Hesse, although it also has concentrations in Lower Saxony and Baden-Württemburg. This information is consistent with your paper trail ancestral record.

    Third, the genetic evidence is consistent in its pattern with many other L21>DF13 men of German ancestry: no close STR matches either on the Continent or in the Isles. NGS SNP testing has allowed us to sort through the noise of STR matches arising from STR convergence. Your SNP tests indicate that you are DF21>FGC3213. The FGC3213 subclade can be further divided into P314.2, S3058, Z30228 and S7150 (per Alex Williamson's The Big Tree). Since you have tested negative for P314.2, you do not share a close relationship with any of the tested or “presumed” P314.2 men given you have an average GD of 16 @ 67 STR markers and 27 @ 111 STR markers with that subclade (i.e., you are equally related to all of them regardless of the closeness/distance of a particular match within the subclade). And, even though you have not tested for S3058, your average GD is 23 @ 67 STR markers (closest match is a GD of 17), suggesting a distant relationship to the S3058 subclade. You have average GDs greater than 24 @ 67 markers for all the other downstream FGC3213 subclades. (These distances calculated from Mike Walsh's L21 spreadsheet.) Lastly, you are even more distantly related to the descendants of the brother subclades to FGC3213, such as S5201. These genetic distances suggest that your closest common patrilineal ancestor with your Isle’s cousins lived about 1600 years ago (rough estimate) and other Isles relationships are substantially older, dating to the Iron Age or potentially earlier.

    An interesting observation about your surname's highest relative density is that similar to most of the men of German ancestry in DF21’s brother clade FGC5494, it peaks in a Landkreiss within a relatively short distance (30 miles) of major Celtic oppida dating from the Halstatt and La Tène periods: the Glauberg in your instance and the Donnersburg in the case of the FGC5494 men. This may indicate that the well-attested Celtic activity in these areas during the Iron Age is the probable source of your common ancestry with men in the Isles. Additionally, having distant cousins whose surnames hotspot to north-eastern France in common with your Isles’ cousins suggests that the Belgae may have been the conduit (many of the Belgae tribes asserted a German/right-bank-of-the-Rhine origin).

    Layer onto the above points the ancient DNA grave finding of DF21 in Hinxton, an area in the Isles known to have Belgae settlement, the building evidence that R1b appears to have spread from the Pontic Steppe westward about 4500 years ago, and that a haplogroup ancestor of DF21, P312, has been found in 3000 year-old burials in what is now central/eastern Germany, the more likely scenario is that your ancestry is a continental legacy of FGC3213’s and DF21’s continental origins and not the other way around.
    Last edited by JRW; 05-28-2015 at 02:52 PM.

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     Agamemnon (08-16-2015),  DaiyuHurst (05-14-2016),  David Mc (05-28-2015),  Gray Fox (05-28-2015),  Jessie (05-28-2015),  MJost (05-28-2015),  Reith (05-28-2015)

  7. #25
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    Thank you for the insight JRW!
    Tests Taken

    L21+, P312+, DF13+, DF21+, FGC3213+, Z246-, L876-, DF41-, L144-, L159-, L193-, P314-, P66-, U106-, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-

  8. #26
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    United States Gadsden Devon Germany Bayern Northern Ireland Germany Palatinate Wales
    Discussion of Hinxton Celt/DF21 merged to http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...21-Z246/page16
     
    Y-DNA : R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>L176.2>Z262>SRY2627*

    mtDNA : J1c8

    Lactase Persistence: rs4988235 - AA rs182549 - TT

    EEF 49.22068981
    WHG 35.89409732
    ANE 14.88521287


    Eurogenes K7:
    WHG 61.67%
    ENF 19.35%
    ANE 15.21%


    Ysearch - ky8wb

    ftdna - 151463

    23andMe - M936999

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  10. #27
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    Just received a new match of GD 6 on 67 markers. Surname is German with a concentration in Bavaria.

    Hmmmmm.... Maybe a Celtic holdover like presumably my ancestor...
    Tests Taken

    L21+, P312+, DF13+, DF21+, FGC3213+, Z246-, L876-, DF41-, L144-, L159-, L193-, P314-, P66-, U106-, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-

  11. #28
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    The topic does read "Welsh and DF21" but perhaps the lack of such discussion has deterred some would-be contributors for participating. While they appear to have been left out of the discussion, there are actaually some Welsh DF21. Make of them what you will, but they include at least the following:
    FGC3903 >> L1446 principally north Wales surnames, Griffith, Hughes, Jones, etc. and some surnames that match villages on the English side of the border, Davenport and Hodnett.
    FGC3903 >> Z29528 Humphreys from the Llyn Peninsula, north Wales although his matches are principally the Nisbet clan of Scotland.
    FGC3903 >> DF25 Rydderch
    S5488 >> Z16294 Evans, Harris, Jones, Morgan & Wilson
    S5488 >> possibly BY518 Jones
    S971 > Z16267 Harbour
    DF21 miscellaneous Jones

    The above discussion appears to focus so heavily on FGC3213, of whom there may or may not be any Welsh, that it overlooked the Welsh contingent in the other three sub-clades of DF21. They could just prove to be significant.

  12. #29
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    An interesting DF25+ Welsh cluster bearing the surname Griffith(s) claim descent from Rhys ap Rhydderch of Wales bc 1275/ 1280. One of them expands his ancestral further, as Rhys ap Rhydderch ap Cydifor ap Dinawal of Gwynned. I cannot vouch for the pedigree. It represents an ambitious claim, the rulers of Gwynned being the major Welsh dynasty. A matter worthy of further investigation.

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